Confluence Financial Partners — 5 Steps for Changing Your Life | Episode #19

Greg:

You are 42% more likely to achieve your goals if you write them down. Imagine that.

(SOURCE: inc.com, Dr. Gail Matthews at the Dominican University in California, 2015)

Hello and welcome to the Imagine That podcast. I’m your host, Greg Weimer, founder partner, and wealth manager at Confluence Financial Partners. Each month we’ll explore new ways to help you maximize your life and your legacy and meet some extraordinary people along the way. So if you’re looking to get more out of your life today and legacy tomorrow, let’s get started.

This is gonna be a great session because at the end of the session, the goal is we give you a couple things that you can do to just get better. The greatest thing one adult can do to another is cause them to think so, hopefully what we’re gonna do today is cause you to think, not only about your health, but also about setting goals, achieving goals, and getting better.

And at the end of the day, if we can help you improve your health just a little bit today, we’ve accomplished our goal. And to do that, I’m here with Eric Zalewski and, and I’ve known Eric, I just did the math. I’ve known Eric for 26 years, right? So, or yeah, 20 years, 25 years, something like that. We’ve known each other a long time. Actually Eric went to kindergarten, I think with, with, with my son Gregory. So how the world changes is amazing. And, and Eric is a, is a son of a great friend of mine, Billy Zalewski. So and many of you may know, Billy’s a great friend. So, and is Eric’s a trainer Eric’s personal trainer at St. Clair Country Club and, and he makes people better. And, and I go in there from time to time, like I go into Jezioro’s gym and I’m trying to get better.

And what I love about Eric is he brings it. Like if I come in there, he brings it every day and I’ve been amazed by the passion he has and how much he loves helping to people get better. And you not only bring it, you live it. So Eric, welcome. We’re looking forward to learning a couple things that we can all do to improve our health and maybe on setting goals. So, so I’m just gonna ask you, like, how do you bring it every day? Because like, are you really that fired up about watching people do like pushups and stuff?

Eric:

Well, first off, Greg, thank you so much for, for having me here today. Obviously humbled to be here. Some very impressive guests on this podcast, and I’m just a fitness guy at the end of the day. As you mentioned, I, I run the fitness center over at St. Clair Country Club. I also coach locally, high school hockey and I run their strength and conditioning program over there. So what’s really cool about what I do is I get to work with so many different kinds of people.

Greg:

Yeah, you do, right?

Eric:

All different kinds of people, right? Which is awesome. Which is challenging. Let me tell you none more challenging than this guy sitting across from me right now. He comes in, day number one. He says, all right, I need to be a GI Joe. I need to go GI Joe shape.

Greg:

It’s true. GI Joe. He said, what are you trying to accomplish? I said, I wanna be a GI Joe.

Eric:

GI Joe, right? So how can you not be fired up about that at the end of the day?

Greg:

Look, you failed miserably by the way, but go ahead.

Eric:

Well, we’re still in, it’s a work in progress and I’m sure everybody can sympathize with me that it is just that. But no, I mean, ultimately here and, and we talked a little bit about this is, you know, growing up, hockey was my life. Hockey was everything. And unfortunately that got cut short a little bit for me in high school due to injury. So once I’ve recovered from those injuries, for me, it was kinda like, okay, where do I take that competitive drive? Where do I take this energy? And for me, it was fitness at the time. Started doing it. Loved the way that, that it made me feel. Loved the way that I could learn something and instantly apply it to my own workouts. When I learned that I could study this in school and do this for a living, bam,

Greg:

Bam.

Eric:

I was all in. I was all in.

Greg:

It’s interesting. What happens is, I worry, don’t, don’t tune out! We’re not asking you to a bunch of exercise. We’re asking to get better. We’re gonna like, like you said, you work with all different types of people. So if you’re listening right now, we’re going to meet you where you are. We’re not gonna try to make you a professional hockey player. We’re gonna meet you where you are. And if at the end of this, you have a couple things you can do to improve your health, we all win.

If we get nothing else across to you, if, if, if you’re motivated, just go into a gym and say, I’d like to hire a trainer. If we end this podcast right now, and you do that — game changer. It’ll, it’ll change the game.

Eric:

And, and really to your point, it’s all about structure, right? And exercise is so individualized, at the end of the day. So what works for you may not necessarily work for me. So it’s important to get a professional out there and somebody that knows what they’re talking about, and knows you more, most importantly, and from there can structure a program, based off of your goals and your body and your time and all of those things should be considered.

Greg:

You know, there’s different types of investments you can make that, granted, by investing in, in businesses, through the stock market is a great investment. The best investment you can make is in yourself. So, so here is an investment guy saying the best investment you can make is in yourself, and go into, to get to someone like Eric with a personal trainer.

Eric has five steps. Five, right?

Eric:

Correct.

Greg:

Five steps. We go through these five steps. You know, you just follow these at the end of the day, you’re gonna be GI Joe. So I have obviously not followed ’em all, but, but, but here’s a problem with this. Easy to do, easy, not to do. Think about that. Easy to do, easy not to do. So, it is easy for you to walk into the gym and hire a trainer. It is also easy not to do it today. And say, okay, I’m gonna do it another day, you know? So it’s easy to do, easy not to do. So now let’s go through the five steps that you would take that if you really wanted to make an impact or change in your life. Step one.

Eric:

Let’s do it. Step number one, we need to identify what needs to change, okay? So the example that we’re gonna use for the, you know, case of this podcast is going to be lose weight.

Greg:

Lose weight.

Eric:

Okay? Simple enough.

Greg:

So simple enough. Go. So lose weight.

Eric:

Lose weight. Okay. So I’m identifying it. Hey, I’m overweight. Dr. has said, I’m overweight. My clothes don’t fit the way I like ’em to fit. I need to lose weight. Okay. That’s step one. Just coming to that realization of, it’s time to make that change.

Greg:

Can I add to that?

Eric:

Yeah.

Greg:

Why? So like that’s I think that like, I think in your heart, I think that’s exactly right. You need to understand if you don’t know what you’re shooting for, you’re not gonna get it. Right. You gotta, you gotta say like, I wanna lose weight. But you gotta say like, why? Why? I’ll tell you my why. I wanna watch my granddaughters dance at their wedding. We were at the gym, I don’t know if you remember, and a cardiologist was there with us. And he said all my, all of my, all of my patients over 90 have one thing in in common, they all work out. And so I just think about my granddaughter who I love dearly. And soon to be my grandson, but I, I love ’em dearly. I wanna be at their wedding when I work out. And if that means I’m gonna lose weight, I want to lose weight. So that’s my why. That shouldn’t be, some, maybe it’s because whatever, but it’s really your why.

Eric:

Right. At the end of the day, this is only gonna work if you understand your why, and if you’re committed to it.

Greg:

Fired up.

Eric:

And if you understand why, you will be committed.

Greg:

You will be committed.

Eric:

At the end of the day.

Greg:

Two.

Eric:

Step number two — in order, it’s great, okay, we’ve identified we needed to make a change, step one. That’s fantastic. But now it’s time to set what is. A quantifiable goal. Okay. So let’s put some numbers to it. So, okay, we’ve identified that, that it’s we wanna lose some weight here. Let’s, let’s say in the upcoming year I wanna lose 20 pounds. Okay?

Greg:

A year.

Eric:

I’m gonna lose 20 pounds in the next year.

Greg:

Is it possible?

Eric:

Okay. Of course. It’s possible. Anything’s possible. Okay. However, what’s important about goals. Okay? That’s more of a longer-term goal. If we look at a year, ah, it’s a long time. Right?

Greg:

Got it.

Eric:

So we gotta break this thing up into segments. So what if I said, instead I’m gonna lose five pounds every three months. And over the course of the year, simple math will get you 20. Right? So setting short-term and long-term goals, putting numbers to it. Right. Cause just saying, I wanna lose weight. What does that mean? Right. Put numbers to it and then also important to write down those goals.

Greg:

So, yeah. So it’s interesting how fitness goals correlate with personal goals. So, so in our firm, next Friday, we do this every six months, we will have all of our associates together. We’ll, we’ll create and, and repeat and focus on where we want to bring the organization to benefit clients. We will then say here’s what we want to do over the next quarter. And, and we’ll get into like the other stuff. We, we hold each other accountable, et cetera, but we will have three goals. Each that we’re trying to do over the next quarter. It brings us closer to our 10-year vision. And all of a sudden, you’ll, you know, you keep doing that every quarter and you get to your 20 pounds, right? If we keep doing that every quarter and we have our quarterly goals, which we, which are quantifiable on things we’re trying to do to help clients, it, whether it’s health or fitness, quarterly seems like the magical, that seems like the magical number. And you can make, so, so you can make a difference in 90 days in health.

Eric:

Of course you can, of course, you can make a difference right away. Right? But it’s just a matter of sticking to it. And, and we’ll continue on that path here as we move forward in these five steps, but it starts with being quantifiable with that goal. And again, if you look at a longer-term plan in a vacuum, you know, it’s gonna be hard to hold yourself accountable to that. Cause that’s never gonna get here, so far down the road.

Greg:

It can be.

Eric:

But when you split that up and you can see the finish line from the starting line, boom.

Greg:

It’s better. Right. Instead of a marathon with no end line, it’s just like, I’m gonna lose, I’m gonna just, I’m gonna lose weight forever. It’s a series of sprints. So you’re like, okay, I’m gonna do a 90-day sprint. The first quarter, second quarter, whatever your thing is, the next 90 days, I’m gonna do a sprint. And here’s my quantifiable goal. Right? And by the way, when I’m functioning at a high, at my highest level, but then we don’t always function at our highest level, I take those quarterly quantifiable goals and I put ’em on index cards and I usually have three to five and I put ’em around my mirror in my bathroom. So I look at ’em every day. And I put ’em on my notebook, on my iPad every day. And I’m looking at those quantifiable goals and I’m trying to accomplish every single day. And that leads to an intentional life. And part of the intention, if, if it’s your lose weight, right? You get, take this, you, you, you’re saying, we’re saying, we’re agreeing — you can make a difference in 90 days. So the question is if that quantifiable goal’s important to you because of your why, is 90 days worth your health?

Eric:

And the answer to that we all hope is yes.

Greg:

I hope so. You just gotta, yeah. So that, so what’s the next thing we need to do?

Eric:

Okay. So then we’ll move right on to step three.

Greg:

Boom. Let’s go.

Eric:

Okay. So we have identified what needs to change. We’ve set that quantifiable goal. Step number three. It’s time to create a plan of action. How are we gonna get there? Okay. So for example, here, we wanna lose weight. We’ve identified here that we wanna lose 20 pounds in a year. We wanna lose five pounds every three months. That’s great. How do we get there? Maybe for example, that it’s going out, like you said, Greg, hire a trainer, step one, right? Find somebody that’s gonna hold you accountable. Find somebody that’s gonna approach this in a way that’s very structured, in a way that makes sense for you. That’s a great place to start, but of course you gotta figure out other things within that. Okay. Where am I going to find the time in a given week?

Let’s say I want to exercise three times a week. Well, where is that time gonna come from? Right? So now you have to start to look at your schedule and we have a great quote, Greg, you and I talked about this. It says that you don’t want to prioritize your schedule. You wanna schedule your priorities. I’ll say that again. Don’t prioritize your schedule, but schedule your priorities. So if this goal, this change in your life is such a big deal. We would say it’s a priority. It’s important that from there, you start to schedule that accordingly. Treat it like a priority in your life.

Greg:

So, so as you’re, you’re saying that, I couldn’t agree more. And, and, and this is where I fail, right? So like this, I say it’s a priority, but, but I book over it. I, I just like, I haven’t seen Frank in a couple weeks. I‘ve seen, I’ve seen you one time in the last couple weeks. I book over it. I, I just, it’s it. I say it’s a priority, but, but I, but I book over it. And so, and it’s a challenge. And so the plan, so let’s assume it’s, let’s assume four hours would be a lot to work out in a week. Yeah? I mean, four, four hours. It could be four one-hour sets. I mean, that’s a lot. Right? So four hours.

Eric:

For most.

Greg:

For most, that’s a lot, I mean, but that, but you could get results with four hours.

Eric:

Of course.

Greg:

Yeah. I just looked, it’s 2% of the week. You’re gonna tell me you care about yourself, but you’re not gonna — and Greg, you’re like, like, you wanna be around for your grandchildren. And, and if I were, you I’d call like BS on that. It’s like you say you want to be dancing with your grandchildren, but you’re not willing to commit 2% of your week to really caring about that. Right. So, so having the plan is really important, but what’s the next step on making sure that it works?

Eric:

Well, it’s execution of that plan, Greg.

Greg:

There it is.

Eric:

Right? So now it’s time to, it’s great to, to write down how you’re gonna get there, but it doesn’t mean anything if you don’t do it.

Greg:

With you and Frank, what do I do? I text ‘healthy scratch.’.

Eric:

Right.

Greg:

Cause I’m not, I didn’t get outta the business. I didn’t get outta the office.

Eric:

And I think you’re being a little hard on yourself, to be fair. But yeah. I mean, you’ve definitely found yourself on the physically unable to perform list a couple of times here recently, but nonetheless, so it’s about executing that plan, right? So, hey, if you’re persistent, you’ll get it. If you’re consistent, you’ll keep it. You have to be persistent and consistent when it comes to execution, at the end of the day.

Greg:

What helps you? What helps you get better at that?

Eric:

Well, I think for me personally, you reset after every single day, you know, it’s great. What I did yesterday was great. Okay? But it doesn’t mean anything if I don’t do it today, if I don’t follow that up today. So for me, it’s that mental reset at the start of every day. What can I do today to become better than yesterday? And what can I do tomorrow to become better than today? That’s another quote that I like to live by. But at the end of the day, it’s that mental reset and bringing it, staying committed every day. And Greg, not every day is gonna be sunshine and rainbows. Not every day is super easy. There might be a day or two that gets away from you. What’s important in all of this is to remember that’s gonna happen. And that’s okay. But over the course of time, if you’re persistent and you’re consistent in that execution, if you bounce back strong, after a tough day, over the course of time, those results and that change will happen.

Greg:

The likelihood of you executing, if you write it down, there’s levels, right? If I say to myself, Greg, I should work out today. There’s a chance I’m gonna do it. If I tell Eric, Eric, I’m gonna work out today, there’s a chance, there’s a greater chance I’ll do it. Cuz I’ve, I’ve shared it with someone else that I now have to live by my word. If, if I, if I say to Eric, meet me at the bottom of my driveway, let’s go do a run. Now, all of a sudden, my, my likelihood of doing it goes through the roof because I have someone to be accountable to. So like in our quarterly goal sessions that we’re doing on behalf of the clients, we have accountability partners where, where it’s like, okay, here’s the things I say I’m gonna do in the business to make sure our business is strong for our clients, for generations. Here’s the things I’m gonna say, I’m gonna do this quarter. And then what we do is we make sure, A, it’s top of mind. So on top of every day’s to-do, are your, are your goals. On top of every day’s to-dos. So you’re living intentionally every day. So it’s on top of your page. And then also we’re, we’re holding each other accountable. One of the greatest things about having a trainer is when I say I’ll be there tomorrow at 11, doesn’t always happen. But if I say I’m gonna be there tomorrow at 11 it’s 90% chance I’m gonna be there instead of 10. So, right? I mean, so it goes through the roof.

Eric:

Right and honestly, even coming back to the accountability, find a friend, you know, or, or find a family member, find somebody that has a similar goal as you and get in this thing together, right? At the end of the day, you know, accountability can make all the difference in the world. If we’re in this thing alone, it makes it tough. Right. It makes it super tough. So finding somebody that has similar goals, similar interests as you, can definitely help in the process of execution.

Greg:

Totally agree. Next step

Eric:

Fifth and final.

Greg:

Here we go.

Eric:

Two-part plan, or two-part step here, revise and progress. Okay. Revise and progress. Okay. So what does that mean? Let’s start with revise, right? Whether you’re successful or unsuccessful in your goal, there’s always gonna be an element of revision that’s necessary. Okay? So let’s say you’re not successful. Let’s say I wanted to lose 20 pounds in a year. We’re six months into that, I’m down only five pounds. I was hoping to be down 10. All right, so let’s go back to that plan of action. Okay. First off, am I doing everything that I planned to do? Am I exercising three times a week?

Greg:

How much did they want to lose?

Eric:

Right. They wanted to lose 20 pounds in a year.

Greg:

And they lost what?

Eric:

They lost five pounds in six months. Right. It’s not over. Right. But why aren’t we on pace? What is it that we need to do in order here to get back on track? So revisiting that plan of action. Am I doing everything I said I was gonna do? If I am, what needs to change then in order for me to have a little bit more success, right? Do I need to set aside more time to exercise?

Greg:

Right.

Eric:

Should I be doing a different type of exercise? You know, am I watching what I’m eating when I’m drinking, stuff like that? But there’s constant revision, there’s constant analysis of the plan when things aren’t going well. And Greg, if things are going well, that’s fantastic. Okay. However, we’re not in this thing just for a, for a one-year, trade off, lose 20 pounds. Great. What happens if I stop? Comes right back, right? So the beauty of success is that it’s two things. One, I feel success is contagious. Right? You get through that year; you lose 20 pounds. Success is contagious, right? Like you wanna do more. Right. What’s the next thing?

Greg:

And, and as horrible as this is. And it’s so egotistical, but it’s humans. Once you start to see results, like, like when you said 5 versus 20, I’ve trained myself. You know what I heard? God bless, they lost five. Do you know what I mean?

Eric:

Right, and to your point, it’s about celebrating the little victories and that’s important here for sustainability. Right. And change. Like, you should be pumped up if you’re on the right track, if you’re trending in the right direction. That’s awesome. Right. Keep it going. Like you’re doing a lot of things right if that’s the case, right. Especially in this example I provided, but the second part that I was gonna say about success is it’s not only contagious, but it’s encouraging, right. At the end of the day, like you have some success, like, you know, you’re fired up.

Greg:

Yeah.

Eric:

You’re fired up. Right.

Greg:

By the way, you could work out like one day and say, I feel so much better. Right? It’s just, it’s a little bit, I just feel better. It’s like, yeah. It’s about energy. Yeah.

Eric:

Right. And we could spend all day talking about the physical and mental benefits of exercise. Right. There’s too many reasons to not do it.

Greg:

Right.

Eric:

But at the end of the day, yeah, I mean, finding, finding something that works for you is ultimately what’s most important. And at the end of all of this, you know, we’re talking about making changes in your life, fitness, health, anything that you wanna make a change to — it’s about a lifestyle, right? So it’s not just a short-term goal and it’s not just a long-term goal. It’s a daily commitment, right? And this is a long journey. But if you focus in on each and every day, it becomes your lifestyle. It becomes what you do.

Greg:

Do me a favor. Let’s recap the five steps because it’s really important that people put these in their brains. I know it’s simple, but you know, getting, getting better and have to be complicated. So the, the five steps are, go!

Eric:

Right. Very simple here. Five steps to make a change in your life.

Number one, identify what needs to change.

Number two, set a quantifiable goal.

Number three, create a plan of action.

Number four, execute that plan of action.

And number five, you’re constantly revising and progressing at the end of the day.

So and, and just to touch on one thing that you said there, Greg, we live in a watching world. People are watching what you do. We need people out there leading by example. And that’s what it comes back to. If you need to make a change in your life, fitness-related or non-fitness related, if it makes you a better person, in all likelihood, it makes everybody around you better, right? A rising tide lifts all boats. And that’s really what this is all about here today.

Greg:

And here’s, here’s just one last thing I would add. If you’re in a rut, change your state. You gotta change your state. So like, if, if, if right now you’re listening to this and whatever’s going on and you’re like not feeling you’re in the moment.

Get down to 10 pushups. Listen to loud music. Put some hot, put some, put some cold water on your face. Whatever that is, you can change your temperature. You can do whatever you gotta change your state. And then when you change your state, then you may, then you go through Eric’s process. If, if state, if, if all you had to do is go buy the new exercise piece of equipment, everybody that ever bought a Peloton would be in shape. You’ve gotta keep the right state and so change your state.

And then I would really encourage you to go through those steps that Eric went through and not make it about Eric’s example, make it about you. And if we’re able to do that and, and people, I don’t know, if five people that listen to this improve their health, we had a hell of a morning talking, right? If just five people, but let’s make it more than five people, cuz the results are the, the, it’s too important not to, right? I mean the, the ramifications are too great not to do this. And then at the end of the day, let’s ask the question is your health worth 1 to 2% of your time a week? And if it is, you’ll have the opportunity potentially to dance at your granddaughter’s wedding and that’s all worth it. Eric, we really appreciate it. We appreciate the passion you bring every day.

Eric:

Well, Greg, thank you very much for having me here. This was a lot of fun. We, and I’m gonna say we’ll be in GI Joe shape maybe by Christmas of 2023.

Greg:

If not, maybe, who else could we be? We’ll pick someone else maybe that’s a little more realistic. We’ll see. All right, thanks Eric.

Eric:

Thank you.

Greg:

Thank you for listening to the, imagine that podcast. We hope you enjoyed this episode and welcome you to reach out to Confluence Financial Partners with your questions and comments. If you’d like to hear more episodes, head over to confluencefp.com/podcasts, or find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Confluence Financial Partners — Wake Up to Gratitude | Episode #18

Greg: Hello and welcome to the “Imagine That” Podcast. I’m your host, Greg Weimer, Founder, Partner, and Wealth Manager at Confluence Financial Partners. Each month, we’ll explore new ways to help you maximize your life and your legacy and meet some extraordinary people along the way. So if you’re looking to get more out of your life today and legacy tomorrow, let’s get started.

Today’s a little bit of a different conversation, but it’s an important conversation we need to have. To introduce our conversation, I’ll just start with a quote. “Gratitude, Like faith, is a muscle. The more you use it, the stronger it grows.”

That’s our goal today, by the way, to grow our muscle of gratitude. And that quote comes from Alan Cohen, who’s a very successful businessperson, but gratitude is powerful. And there’s some studies that go about how powerful gratitude is. So this Thanksgiving, let’s wake up to gratitude. We all say we’re grateful. And we say, thank you. And thank you sometimes can just be, you know, just be a throwaway line. Hey, thanks. No, no, no. Let’s not say it. This Thanksgiving let’s not say thank you from our heads. Let’s say it from our hearts. And when you really look at the benefits of gratitude, it’s amazing what it can do to the human body.

You know, America this year, and the last couple of years have had so much anxiety. And it’s been proven by the way that if you are grateful, it is very, very difficult to be grateful and anxious at the same time. Let’s be grateful. It’ll, it’ll, it’ll help with the anxiety I think of the world.

So let me just share with you a statistic that is amazing. Practicing gratitude has been shown to improve sleep, boost, immunity, decrease risk of disease. Imagine that. Like, it really does have an effect on people. And like, when you look at some of the research, there were two psychologists and I, and I know this is getting a little deep into gratitude, but there’s science behind it. And then we have so much to be grateful for, I’ll talk about that, but there was a Dr. Emmons and then doctor— they had three groups, one group wrote about gratitude. The second group wrote about irritations. And then the third group wrote about activities that happen in life with no emotion. And it is amazing what they found. They found that after 10 weeks, the people that wrote about gratitude were more optimistic, felt better, happier, had fewer visits to the doctors.

So anyhow, this episode is about gratitude. Gratitude is powerful. What you dwell on, you multiply. What you dwell on, you multiply. So here’s some things that I just want to share that that could help you have more gratitude from your heart in our lives. Here’s just some exercises that we could maybe practice together to become even more grateful. One, and this is easy. A lot of listeners probably already doing this, but a question. Do you write down something that you’re grateful for every day? On my to-dos like at the bottom of the page, I just put like something I’m grateful for. And it doesn’t need to be world peace.

It could be air conditioning. I don’t know. It could be heat. It could be the food that we are able to eat. Write down something that you’re grateful for. My daughter, Morgan, she gave me a jar and I could write down like something I was grateful for all the time. Now, you know, if you have kids, make sure you have, when you die, they read it. So, you know, you got to say something like nice about every kid. But it was awesome. At first, I’m like, I got it for Christmas. I think she gave it for me for Christmas. I’m like, that’s cool. I’ll write down whatever. But it’s cool. I look at that jar and every time I look at that jar, I’m grateful because I realize every day, I wrote down something that I was grateful for. You know, there’s also studies that if you write a letter, write a letter of gratitude, maybe, maybe that’s your to do from this.

Maybe you’ve been meaning to tell your mom how much you love her. And just imagine, if you’re a parent, how great it would be if one of your children wrote you a letter. Why not be that child? Why not write that letter to your child or to your parents and write the letter? And hopefully that will be wonderful for them. My guess is though it would also be wonderful for you to let someone know how much you really are appreciative of them. This is something we stumbled on last week in my office. And that is, I’m going to give you a gratitude awareness challenge. So I was sitting in my office, and I thought, okay, let me just look around the room and actually be present, right? So I’m in my office all the time. But am I present to gratitude? So it was a form of meditation for me.

I started looking around the room and realizing how much we have to be grateful for. So this is a glimpse into also gratitude and how, how fortunate I feel for so many of the relationships. Let me give you an example. I have a lot of pictures of my office. And I’ve looked at those pictures so often, I don’t know that I see them.

And that day I looked at them and I saw them. And I saw my kids, my wife, my family, I see these pictures. I don’t even look at them. I see them. And I feel them. And it was awesome. I was just so grateful. And now I’ll tell you, every time I look at those pictures, I just look at them in a different way. I looked at my computer and I thought we are fortunate to be able to work with the clients we have.

We have awesome clients. Many are great friends, just great clients. We don’t take that for granted. They could work anywhere and, and clients choose to work with us. We’re grateful for that. I’ll tell you another thing I looked at, I looked at the Mickey Mouse picture. We have, I have a Mickey Mouse picture in my office, and I thought, it just took me right back to when we were all, our team was in Vegas, and I was walking down the road and I saw a Mickey Mouse picture and we bought it. And it just reminded me how grateful I was, not only for that interaction that we had in Vegas, but also for the team. And they mean the world to us.

And we’re so fortunate to have that, but this all came alive. I looked at, I have a hammer. My Pappy was a carpenter. And so I, when, when he passed away, I got his hammer. This was in the eighties. I got his hammer and I got it bronzed and his fingerprints on the handle of the hammer. So it just made me so thankful for my Nonna and my Pappy. And they really gave our family work ethic. And I’d looked at that, I’ve looked at that hammer since the 1980s. And I’m telling you, when I woke up to gratitude by doing that little meditation, it came alive. I participated in a charity event called Folds of Honor. And I have a little memento from the charity event, the Folds of Honor, and, you know, Folds of Honor, for fallen heroes and military. And we have our freedom because people have given their lives. And when you think about that, it’s powerful.

And if we can’t be grateful for that and thankful, and honor those people, shame on us! And it really woke me up. And I felt that. I’ve always cared about — I felt it that day. And so, you know, last thing, I saw my kids and wife, they did it when I turned 50, like, you know, 50 Things We Like About Dad thing. And I, and I actually read it and I looked at it and I thought, man, I look at that every day and I don’t feel it. So my challenge to everybody is, there’s real benefits to you and to your health and to your happiness and to your mental health if you feel gratitude. And this holiday season, this Thanksgiving, let’s take gratitude to the next level. And it may be just writing a to-do every day of something you’re thankful for. It may be send a letter to say thank you to someone. It could be wake yourself up to gratitude.

By the way I did this. I’m like, does that really work? I was wondering. Like, was that just a weird day in my office? No, I did it early this morning, sitting in my family room. Which is just couches and a TV. I won’t take you through the whole room again, but it happened again! It happened again! And I’ll never walk in that TV room, the family room in our house, I’ll never walk in there the same again. Cause I sat there at 5:30 this morning and I did the gratitude challenge. And man, that room came alive. So many of you will be with loved ones this year. Many of you will be with family, thank goodness, we’re allowed to be with family again. But do the gratitude challenge and just wake yourself up to gratitude. And I promise you what you’re going to find: it’s 100% all around you.

Thank you so much for listening and from our Confluence family, we wanted to tell your family and make sure we express our gratitude to all of you. Happy Thanksgiving.

Thank you for listening to the “Imagine That” Podcast. We hope you enjoy this episode and welcome you to reach out to Confluence Financial Partners with your questions and comments. If you’d like to hear more episodes, head over to ConfluenceFP.com/podcasts or find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Confluence Financial Partners — Meet Jonny Hartwell | Episode #17

Greg:

Radio reaches 92% of the U.S. Population weekly, compared to 88% for television1. Imagine that.

Greg:

So today we have Jonny Hartwell with us, and if you want to hear authenticity and the importance of being authentic, you should listen. If you want to hear about how to change and evolve in a rapidly changing industry like radio, when you think about how much radio has changed in the last 20 years, and Jonny has been part of it and continues to strive and evolve and excel in, in a very, very rapidly changing industry, you should listen in. And if those two things don’t excite you, you know what? Just listen to Jonny and be entertained because it’s a fun, he’s just fun. It’s fun to hear it, listening to the stories. So please enjoy the episode today. This is hard for me,

Jonny:

Why?

Greg:

Because you’re like, because you’re like, this is what you do. This is my thing. And I’m so nervous.

Jonny:

I’ve never been interviewed before.

Greg:

I do this once a month. I mean, this is like, this is weird for me. And that’s the way, the way this works.

Jonny:

Okay.

Greg:

Jonny interviewed me and it was, you did such a nice job. Great questions carried me along. So now I’m interviewing Jonny Hartwell.

Jonny:

And, and I’m going to screw things completely up.

Greg:

Oh yeah, I’m not worried about me. I’m worried about you messing up.

Jonny:

Oh yeah, absolutely. That’s where it’s going to go. You’re totally off the tracks now.

Greg:

You’re like a pro. So we’ll try. So help me out.

Jonny:

Well, that’s kind of funny that you say that because to me, it’s just, just talking, it’s just having a conversation.

Greg:

Yeah. We were just hanging out for the last half hour. They should have just recorded that. That was fun.

Jonny:

That was fun.

Greg:

It was fun. Yeah. So, but for those of you that don’t know, Jonny, Jonny has been in the radio business since,

Jonny:

Since the earth was cooling.

Greg:

That’s what I’m thinking. I was trying to figure out a nice way to say that. 1983.

Jonny:

Yeah. That’s when I started in college radio and then progressed to, you know, you know, a full-time job in, you know, 1988 and then landed in Pittsburgh in ’96. So I’ve been here for 25 years.

Greg:

In ’96, you started with?

Jonny:

B94.

Greg:

B94!

Jonny:

Well, I was on briefly for Magic Y97 in Braddock for a period. And then I moved to Youngstown, Ohio, and then I’ve, I’ve worked Myrtle Beach and LA and all points in between. Disc jockeys don’t die. We just get bigger—

Greg:

Oh, here’s the, here’s the best.

Jonny:

Okay.

Greg:

So I’m like, okay, so what’s your real name?

Jonny:

Jonny.

Greg:

It’s Jonny.

Jonny:

Jonny Hartwell.

Greg:

So like, I thought it was, so I’m only Googling the top DJ names, thinking like Jonny Hartwell will come up this morning. So I’m having my coffee. I’m like, okay, this can’t be real. He’s like, what is his name? It can’t be Jonny Hartwell.

Jonny:

It is Jonny.

Greg:

Jonny Hartwell iHeartRadio.

Jonny:

Yep. So I was named after Johnny Cash and I, my parents were big Johnny Cash fans. My real name is Jon, J-O-N but I — well, this jockey in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina said, you know, what name do you want to come up with? And I’m like, I don’t know. And he goes, ah, how about Trapper, John? I went, oh, okay. And I use Trapper John for the first break. And he was like, nah, no, no, you’re Jonny, Jonny Hartwell. And that was the only time. I mean, here’s something ridiculous. What I started with B94, we had this meeting to discuss if I was going to use a fake name and they ping ponged different names and they were going to call me Spank. And I’m thinking, oh, no, no, no, no, no. Here’s a guy who’s married, has three kids. Don’t call me spank. And so—

Greg:

I so want to call you Spank now.

Jonny:

Please don’t.

Greg:

Wait, wait, wait, one more name. What in the world is Jonny Palooza?

Jonny:

Wow. So where’d you come up with that?

Greg:

I just did. I get paid to know.

Jonny:

No, you gotta tell me.

Greg:

I got to get paid to know. All right. So let me, I’m gonna help you. It’s called Google.

Jonny:

Oh, okay. All right. Well when I worked for CBS radio we sponsored Kid-a-Palooza, right? And we expected about 50 people to show up. And 5,000 people showed up. And we didn’t have any prizes. We didn’t have any games. And I had this thing called the magic strings and I would, I would get these kids together and I would do these little magic tricks. And just to keep people occupied till the staff was able to come down with prizes and they’re like, oh, thank God, Jonny Palooza’s here. He took care. Also when it comes to, there, it’s funny, disc jockeys generally are you think of them as gregarious, outspoken kind of people. But a lot of us are very shy.

Greg:

I was going to ask you that, you know, Johnny Carson was right. So a lot of folks that are entertainers are shy. So you actually would consider yourself an introvert?

Jonny:

No, I’m not. I’m not your typical. No, I love, I like my embarrassment gene was severed as a child. And so when, when I would do live appearances, I would bring out the fun and games and laugh and carry on. And, and so whenever somebody said, Hey, you know, who do you want to do the remote? They go, hey, give it to Jonny Palooza. He, you know, it was actually, it was a bit of an insult because, you know, this guy just he’s so full of themselves. I just love entertaining people face to face.

Greg:

Yeah, but even people that love entertaining others. Like I’m more of an introvert, but even people that love entertaining others and being around people. I know!

Jonny:

Really? You?

Greg:

True. Yeah. True. So, you know, and I, I’ve heard introverts to be like, well, where do you go to get your energy? So if you, if you need to be alone to just like recharge, that means you’re more of an introvert. You know, it doesn’t mean that you can’t be entertaining and fun and be with people. It just means you have to recharge your battery. And you don’t recharge your battery by being around 10 people, you do it by like, you know, just like chilling a little bit, you know, just like chill a little bit. So yeah, I’m actually an introvert.

Jonny:

But my experience with you is that you, you are, you have fun. You’re energetic. So you, you must have a lot of down time.

Greg:

I don’t, I don’t need that much. I’m kind of like a lab — I either go or I sleep, there’s no in between. So, so what I, one of the reasons I also wanted to talk to you is, when you think about radio from when you started in 1983 to today. I mean, and by the way, you and I were talking about earlier that radio, especially in Pittsburgh, I grew up in Johnstown. It, it, it, it’s my childhood. Like I think of WCRO and then Glue 92. And like, and then when I first started the business, one of my tasks was I would get on: This is Greg with WVSC in Somerset with a stock market report, you know? And then I would give like the stock market and what it did. And now people look on their phone and they know instantaneously. And there’s satellite radio and, and, and, you know, going from when my, I used to sit on the porch with my Pappy and listen to the Pirate games, you know, it, it it’s changed so much. I can’t think of any other industry really off the top of my head that has had such change. How’s that affected you? How’s that affected, you know, the profitability and the listenership and radio.

Jonny:

Well, believe it or not. You know, because of iHeartRadio, we have almost a thousand radio stations from coast to coast. We interact with more people on a daily basis in the United States than Google does globally.

Greg:

Come on!

Jonny:

I’m not kidding. This is, people underestimate the reach of radio, but when it comes to Pittsburgh, I’ve always said Pittsburgh was the first radio market. It will be its last! Because radio is such an integral part of people’s lives here in Pittsburgh. Now I’m not saying I’m not going to discount the other media in, in certain, you know, satellite radio, you mentioned. The thing is satellite radio is a very expensive, you put a rocket into space and maintain it, that costs billions of dollars. And I don’t know what satellite’s going to do once Howard Stern retires. But—

Greg:

Why is he such a great interviewer? Because he is, right?

Jonny:

He is, he’s fantastic, he’s the best.

Greg:

What makes him great?

Jonny:

I’m not really crazy about his, the sophomoric humor.

Greg:

I get it, but when it comes to the interview, he does an interview. It’s like, it’s a great interview.

Jonny:

But with, with radio, we have maintained locality. And when, when, let’s talk newspapers. You’re a stock guy. When’s the last time you consulted the newspaper for stocks?

Greg:

Uh-huh. No. I, I mean, you know, it’s, it’s, we could be way more selective how, and when we consume information. So, so now, instead of reading the Wall Street Journal from, I will search the topic and then the source. So, I first go to the topic and then wherever that source is, Wall Street Journal, rather, that’s where I find it. So it’s a little different,

Jonny:

Right.

Greg:

So wait, let me just say I just, I, they gave me this statistic, which to support what you’re saying, I’m going to you, I’m not going to kill you with stats, but not, it says the average American spends 99 minutes a day, listening to the radio2. And just to support that, whoever’s listening right now, think about, okay, wait a minute. Have I listened to the radio today? And I have.

Jonny:

It’s changed in that. It’s, it’s mainly in cars and vehicles and things like that. You know, we used to have one of those big radios and you’d listen to at home. That generally doesn’t happen with the iHeartRadio, you can listen to anywhere. But okay. Let me ask you just on top of your head and I don’t want to—

Greg:

3WS, what’s the question.

Jonny:

All right. So the, when I open up my microphone, how many people do you think I’m talking to on a daily basis?

Greg:

Gosh, I would have no idea. I almost asked you that before. So, so 200,000?

Jonny:

Double that. About 400,000. Every time I opened up the mic, I’m talking to 400,000 people. And I start thinking about that, that kinda freaks you out. But, but a lot of people don’t realize that, that, you know, they aren’t listening for, oh boy, if they’d listen for 90 minutes, I’d be rich. 3WS is a music-oriented radio station though, so they don’t listen to that. But when you know, Pittsburghers, when the Steeler games on, they listen to the radio — big numbers. Now, when we play Christmas music, Ooh, that’s 600,000.

Greg:

You starting like next week, right?

Jonny:

Yeah, we are.

Greg:

Katie, Katie, Katie works with us in the room. She’s already started by the way, if you, regardless when you’re listening to this, it’s a, it’s August, but Katie’s listening to Christmas music—

Jonny:

Here’s a, do you know why we play Christmas music early?

Greg:

No. Why?

Jonny:

It’s because, well, first of all, you know, the first week, the ratings actually take a dip and then they skyrocket, but our ratings end like December 5th. So if we want to get a bounce in the ratings playing Christmas music, we gotta play it earlier.

Greg:

December 12th doesn’t help so much.

Jonny:

No it doesn’t. It really doesn’t.

Greg:

So let me ask you this. You’ve seen so much, it’s been since 1983, and one of the things that to have a successful and happy life, you have to evolve and, and life throws you curve balls, and you got to change and radio changes, and you got to change. What are some of the things that you’ve had to do professionally to allow you to change and adapt — and maybe it’s even your brand? Or is it the same brand?

Jonny:

Okay. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll give you an insight on the Jonny Hartwell program. You talked about, Hey I don’t do news. If you want news, you get that on your, on, you know, whatever news app you have on your phone sports scores, you know, the ratings for ESPN have plummeted because I can get the Pirate score anytime, all the time, and it can even be sent to me?

Greg:

Isn’t it amazing television, how little sports they have on the local news?

Jonny:

Cause they don’t need to; everybody knows the score way before the broadcast even happens. The way I looked at my show even 10 years ago when I first started at 3WS is like I’m gonna, I’m gonna do some Hollywood reports, but it’s going to be not controversial, but a little bit of commentary and say, you know, Hey Kim Kardashian, Kanye — make kind of make fun of that situation.

Greg:

Easy to do.

Jonny:

And so that I have a little bit of that. I want to do music news because you know, it’s a music driven radio station. The 3WS also has a history of 75 years of playing music. And so I want to be able to touch in, you know, people who listen to 3WS is very in tune with music from the fifties and sixties, even though we don’t play a lot of that anymore.

Jonny:

And there, I, I don’t avoid talking about music news of, of even current music, like Elton John has a current hit, now in the top 40. So I’m.

Greg:

Really good.

Jonny:

Yeah, it is really good. I agree.

Greg:

Yeah.

Jonny:

But, but that’s some of it, but my whole show is, before the break is, I’ve got a secret, Greg, I have a, I have a secret, I have a trivia question. I have a who-sings-it. And if you want to know the answer, you have to stay through the commercial break. It’s, it’s not, I’m not reinventing the wheel.

Greg:

The hook.

Jonny:

This is Casey Kasem, Casey Kasem did it for 40 years.

Greg:

What’s it called? Tease or hook, whatever you guys call it, whatever you guys call it. Yeah. It

Jonny:

Just keeps people listening. So if I do a trivia question, you know there’s only eight of these in America, all of them are in the Baltimore area. What is it? What is it?

Greg:

Eight … Baltimore.

Jonny:

There’s eight of these. And they’re only in the Baltimore area. Male cheerleaders. For the Ravens. And so if, if you want it, if you want to know the answer,

Greg:

I was so close to saying something. I was so close.

Jonny:

I was a male cheerleader.

Greg:

Given. So you take, you take 3WS, over a period of time, right? Right. Success leaves clues in any industry success leaves clues. So you take 3WS from number 11 in the market, is that true?

Jonny:

In the morning tonight.

Greg:

Yeah, in the morning. To number one.

Jonny:

In some months, in some instances, yeah, we’re number one.

Greg:

Yeah. It’s still it’s. It’s, it’s good. I mean, it’s and success leaves clues. What do you think if you could help the audience if you’re trying to be successful? And here’s some of the things we did that really allowed us to grow on the market.

Jonny:

Well, first of all, Pittsburghers can under, they can detect if you’re from out of town.

Greg:

For sure.

Jonny:

And if you’re not, if you’re not a Pittsburgher, they’re not going to embrace you. I’m Pittsburgh to the bone. I mean, even when I worked in in South Carolina, you know, I would say, you know, get aht!

Greg:

Get out.

Jonny:

Earlier, you went, yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah.

Greg:

Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah, I got it, I got it.

Jonny:

I, I in South Carolina, Myrtle Beach is in the county of H-O-R-R-Y, pronounce it. H-O-R-R-Y. How would you pronounce it?

Greg:

I’m going to do it wrong. Hoary.

Jonny:

Yes. And I said, “hoary” on the air and they called me up. You Yankee! It’s O-ray!

Greg:

It’s sort of like people from out of town say, I saw someone from Dubois (doo-bwa).

Jonny:

Dubois (doo-boys) I worked there.

Greg:

Yeah. So, so you, so you have to be, you have to be genuine. You have to be native. You have to be authentic.

Jonny:

Yeah.

Greg:

That’s one of the things I get about you. You’re authentic.

Jonny:

Thank you.

Greg:

Yeah, no, it is. I mean, it’s a skill, I mean, to be authentic. You know, it’s: be you. In fact, in fact, we were talking about that. We’re going to do a little, little video on that. Be you. Like, whatever, be you.

Jonny:

I don’t know who else to be.

Greg:

I don’t know, but people— they do, people try to be someone else they’re not authentic. They’re not real. You have to be disarmingly candid. Be you.

Jonny:

Well, I think it comes back to, you know, coming up with a radio name, you know, that’s coming up with a character. Hi, I’m Jonny. I’m Jonny Hartwell. That’s my name. That’s who I’ve always been. I don’t know who else to be.

Greg:

Formerly known as Spank.

Jonny:

Can you edit that out?

Greg:

It’s Spank! So what makes it make what makes a good interview?

Jonny:

Just what you said, if, if the person is authentic.

Greg:

Yes.

Jonny:

And I’ve interviewed a thousand people and when I’m interviewing generally celebrities, they’re trying to sell something and it’s, it’s my job.

Greg:

Can’t you tell that like a mil, a mile away. Hate it.

Jonny:

I hate it. Yeah. And, and it’s, it’s difficult because I’m in a position, I know they want to sell something. And it’s, it would make me a bad interviewer if I avoided that subject, because that’s the reason why they are talking to me. And I’ll give you a prime example. David Crosby, one of the greatest vocalists ever, and — Crosby, Stills, Nash, Young — and I really wanted to get into why those four people don’t continue to put music together. And he was, he wasn’t having it. He just wasn’t having it. Even if he’s like, listen, we’ve moved on.

Greg:

Right.

Jonny:

It’s just like, I really wish I could get together with—

Greg:

Different chapter new season.

Jonny:

Yeah. But no, he was just like, Hm, Nope. Not going there. And I was like, ah, come on. That’s what, as an interviewer, that’s what everybody wants to know. I can sell your product. You got a new album; you have a show coming into Pittsburgh. I’ll be happy to talk about that. But if, if I didn’t ask you that question, that’s the question on everybody’s mind who is a fan?

Greg:

And it’s unfair for me to get to know you, you got to get to know me. For you to get to know me, I gotta let you in.

Jonny:

Yeah. And I’ll tell you—

Greg:

Let people in a little bit.

Jonny:

Here’s one of my favorite interviews ever, was — God, I forget his name. The American Idol, dog, Randy Jackson, Randy Jackson. When I went to interview him at the Grammy Awards, he’s like, Jonny Hartwell! How are you doing? And I was like, oh, he doesn’t know me, but he goes, man, you added this song this week. Why did you do that? I’m like, well, wait a minute. You know, my playlist? He was like, Hey, you didn’t know you didn’t you didn’t add the Jordin Sparks. What is it? What’s going on with that, man, it’s going to be a hit. I’m like, yeah, I’m probably going to do it in a week or so. He goes, what are you waiting for? Pull the trigger tomorrow, Tuesday’s tomorrow.

Jonny:

And it’s like, he knew that business. He knew me. And he, he was prepared for that, that interaction. And then he, and he actually introduced me to Janet Jackson while we were having this interview. No, yeah. I met Janet. She’s like, hi. And that was it. I was not impressed with Janet. She just said, hi, like, I don’t know you, fine, hello. But Randy took the time to do his homework with the person who’s going to be doing the interview. And that so impressed me. And the people who are prepared or understand that I have a goal as an interviewer and they have a goal as an interviewee and they, we kind of mesh, we do that dance, you know what I mean? You’ve done enough of these interviews, and you know what the, the, the best interviews that you’ve had, what was, what was that ingredient that you had?

Greg:

You know, there’s a connection. If there’s a connection. And so I think it’s so much easier, like you and I, I’m not asking on a date or anything like that, but like, there’s a connection. Like you come in, it’s a, it’s a warm, hello. Like, I just, when I, when I saw you in the lobby, I really felt like, you know what? Game on. I want to be here. This is going to be fun. Let’s go, let’s figure out how we can, like, you know—

Jonny:

And when you were on my podcast, I felt the same way.

Greg:

I loved it.

Jonny:

Yeah. Cause you—

Greg:

I had fun.

Jonny:

Yes. And that’s, that’s all I’m asking. I want you to have fun. I want you to be comfortable.

Greg:

And, and by the way, the whole go back to trying to sell stuff. I mean, I think, I don’t think we’ve ever talked about investing on here. I think if people get to know us, maybe they’ll work with us. If they get to know you, they’re going to be more interested in your podcast. And that happens, right? I mean, it just happens by, by creating rapport with people that then you end up doing better, more business and you get more listeners and things like that. I think if I sat here and said, and just so you know, Jonny Hartwell has a podcast coming out, make sure you tune in to whatever I’m going to get on it. You know what I mean? It’s brand new comes coming out, whatever, right.

Jonny:

Yeah. I don’t know. It’s a, it’s, it’s more of, in an idea concept stage.

Greg:

Yeah. But by you being Jonny Hartwell and being honest and being authentic, people are like, you know what? I’m going to listen to 3WS tomorrow morning. And I think. Yeah, no, I do.

Jonny:

Hey, I got three dogs— I have three kids and a dog, I need all the listeners I can get.

Greg:

But I think that is, I think that matters. And you know, it’s also true in politics. I don’t want to get into politics, but as an example and tangentially or whatever.

Jonny:

Well, I think that’s where our politics kind of fall apart is that they they’ve lost that commonality. That they, the, you know, how are, how real are these people?

Greg:

Right.

Jonny:

And I don’t, I don’t get it from either side, to be honest with you.

Greg:

No, I get it. I mean, but if you think about it, I’m not going to go there to which ones cause people will say like, oh, he’s Republican or Democrat, it’s not that, it’s just, it’s just checking in on people’s authenticity.

Jonny:

I’m neither. And I, I honestly believe broadcasters should be neutral.

Greg:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jonny:

That’s I mean that’s kind of an old school—

Greg:

Where’s, where’s radio in 10 years?

Jonny:

That’s interesting. I think it needs to be hyper-local. I don’t think it’s headed that way, but I think it, it, it maintains like you look at the radio stations that are successful in any market. The top three or four are the ones that are local talking about local stuff.

Greg:

So this is, this is something you and I talked about before. I guess they were recording, but I think, I think it’s a key to success. The more local decisions are made, the more they can be made for the benefit of the community. And, and that’s true in politics. Again, that’s true in business. What’s happening in business right now. Like, I mean, we’re blessed to be a local firm or whatever. And we can do things, you know, we can, we can make quicker decisions, we can adapt more. But these big organizations think they’re going to make a decision in Washington, D.C. that’s going to affect us positively here in Pittsburgh. And it’s not true. Same with radio, right? I think I mentioned to you our house was struck by lightning. And so we got— you shouldn’t smile when I say that, that’s like not a joke. And Jonny’s over there like smiling. My house was struck by lightning. Thinks that’s funny.

Jonny:

I lived in Pennsbury. We never had power. If, if, if lightning strikes in Singapore, boom, Our lights go off.

Greg:

So real quick story. So I see firetrucks going up the road in our South Hills office. And I jokingly said like, oh my gosh, I hope my house isn’t on fire. I hope that’s not me.

Jonny:

It was you?

Greg:

It was us. So Lori, my wife calls, my wife calls me in five minutes and is like, honey, our house was struck by lightning. I said, we all okay? Okay. Do I need to come home? No, you’re good. Okay. So I sat, I never got up. And it was, it was such an important meeting. I’m like, okay. I’m not getting out of this room until we figure this out. We did. Later on, she told me I probably should have come home. So yeah, in hindsight. Here, here’s a tip for the listeners. We’re trying to help people improve: when your house, when you’re away at work and your house gets struck by lightning — go home. It’s just a little, little, little tip.

Jonny:

Tidbit of the day. It’s Greg’s tidbit of the day!

Greg:

But anyway we got struck by lightning. So we had to go get Sonos. So now Sonos is great, but, and I’m sure I’ll learn how to use it eventually, but I loved going — when you said it has to be local — I loved going to the wall, pressing the, the keyboard and putting in 3WS, or B94. And now it’s like, I get that I can listen to like, whatever Dave Matthews all day long, but I don’t want to.

Jonny:

Well, I, I think where Pittsburgh radio has succeeded is that, you know, the — newspapers have faded. And it’s too bad. Cause I love, I love reading—

Greg:

A cup of coffee and a newspaper.

Jonny:

Yeah. And, and television has almost disappeared, especially from a local standpoint because we’re all you know, we’re all connected with Tik Tok and YouTube, and, and we already know the sports scores. Why do I need that? And plus now with 932 streaming services, I don’t know where to find WPXI. Where are you? And, and, and so, but with radio, one thing you can pick us up on an app now. You can pick it up in in your car, but we also are able to integrate with social media, very, you know, very easily. And that has allowed us to adapt. And that that’s, one thing that Pittsburgh radio has done exceedingly well is interact with social media. Because, because we, we talked about, you know, the importance of being local. I take as many phone calls as I, as I possibly can, because that’s my opportunity to touch somebody. And, you know, it suddenly, you know Pam calls and then the next time I recognize her voice and say, hey Pam? I’m done. She’s gone. She, she is, she’s going to listen to 3WS forever because I Jon, Jonny recognized my voice and he’s my guy now. And so that’s—

Greg:

So you think it goes back, because it feels like it’s gone away from being a local, not, maybe not around here, but, but it has, right. I mean—

Jonny:

It does. Yeah. I lived in California for a time. And in California, Los Angeles is not integrated with, with the local community at all.

Greg:

So you think it comes back to being more local? To be successful Pittsburgh, the radio, come back to being more local?

Jonny:

Not just radio, but even in, in—

Greg:

In our business.

Jonny:

Financial, for sure. Absolutely.

Greg:

So we are able to do things for our clients. I think if we were national and had thousands and thousands of people, we have to make decisions differently. So hopefully Pittsburgh, because again, you know, WCRO, Glue 92,

Jonny:

Let me ask you a question, because now we’re moving into a Zoom era where everybody’s talks on Zoom and Zoom can be personable. If you talk to that person as a real person to have a real connection. When I interviewed you on, on my podcast, it was over Zoom and we still were able to maintain a connection. So I think even if you use that technology, it has to have a, you have to have that connection, whether it’s face-to-face or through Zoom or whatever technology you use, having that personal, having somebody look you in the eyeball and say, you know, this is what I think you ought to do. And it makes a big difference.

Greg:

But whether it’s Pam, you recognize the voice, right. Or over Zoom, or you and I across the table, the ability to connect is unique.

Jonny:

You think?

Greg:

I do.

Jonny:

Really?

Greg:

I do. And I, and I worry, it’s becoming more rare.

Jonny:

Wow. Yeah.

Greg:

Just because, you know, we think: I talked to them. Really. How’d you do that? Did you talk to them? I texted them. You texted them. So I think the connection—

Jonny:

Yeah. I agree.

Greg:

I just think it’s, I think it’s different. And I think for, for, not that I know anything about radio, but it just feels like my connection with Sonos is very different than my connection with a local radio station. Like through 3WS.

Jonny:

Yeah. I, I think that.

Greg:

You feel like you have a connection because you have, because you have things in common, which creates rapport.

Jonny:

Yeah. If I, if during COVID I did a couple shows from home. And because I didn’t have that connectivity, I felt lost. I felt like I was, I was in an ocean. I didn’t, I didn’t know where to go. I didn’t know the direction I needed to go. And then, so I went, I did maybe a week’s worth of shows from home. And I was like, nah, I can’t do this. I have to go back into the studio.

Greg:

Yeah. And I want to be around people I work with. I want to people, I want to do business with people. I want to, I want to interview. I want to people, to be around people have a connection to, it’s just so much more fun. Like I really enjoy spending time. I there’s a connection. And I think that that’s unique. And I, and maybe that’s what makes you, you know, 11 to 1, the city feels like they have a connection with you.

Jonny:

I don’t know. I hope so. I mean, I have a connection to Pittsburgh. I haven’t had a desire to move into another city now.

Greg:

I’m never moving.

Jonny:

My, my goal was always to come back to Pittsburgh. You know, I, I, my first real gig was in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, doing a morning show. Went down, there on vacation, right after graduation from college. Knocked at this one radio station. And this guy goes, I’ll tell you what, boy, there’s this new radio station down the road a piece, you should go down there. And I’m like, oh my God, Gomer Pyle can work in Myrtle Beach, I can. So I ended up going down to this radio station, knocked on the door. It was a Saturday morning. The guy asked me three questions. What’s your name? Where are you from? When do you want to start? They just fired the midday guy that night because they had a trip to Charlotte, a bus trip, no drinking allowed. Well, he had a bottle of Jack Daniels. He chugged it, threw up backstage and they fired him. So the boss had to fill in for the, the morning show, you know, that his show on, on Saturday morning, he was like, he’s thinking I hate doing these Saturday morning things. Jonny Hartwell showed up. That’s how I got my first job.

Greg:

So that was the first one.

Jonny:

First one.

Greg:

So most embarrassing moment on, on like, air that you hit, like you just starting out. When you were like, oh boy!

Jonny:

No. Oh, actually the first and most embarrassing moment I ever had was, was on B94. I was at the Grammy Awards. KDKA TV asked me to do a live cut-in. I feel completely comfortable behind a radio mic. In front of a television camera, no! A different story. And I went on the red carpet. I had about 10 minutes before airtime. I had this little box of sadness, a bunch of, you know, earpieces. And I don’t know how they work. And I had to look for sat three, and I was going up to every camera going, are you sat 3? Are you sat 3?

Jonny:

And nobody was answering. They, they had their little, and all of a sudden, I felt an arm beside me saying, I think, I think you need to go here. And this guiding hand led me down to the red carpet to sat 3. I looked over; it was Ellen DeGeneres.

Greg:

Really.

Jonny:

She helped me. And she said, are you sat 3? And the guy goes, yeah. And then she put the earpiece in. I was on the air with Patrice King Brown and Ken Rice. And I’m on the air in Pittsburgh. I can’t hear them. All right. So I’m just guessing on their questions. And I’m just rambling along. I’m not, I’ve never done television before. And then all of a sudden, I hear Patrice go, Hey, is that the Dixie Chicks? And I look over and there are the Dixie Chicks. I said, Hey Dixie Chicks, say hello to Pittsburgh. And they came over and they said, hi Pittsburgh. And then they went back to whatever they are doing. What I didn’t know is they were being interviewed, live on CNN. And I brought them off camera to go say hi to Pittsburgh. So the producer on CNN, is screaming at me while I’m looking into a camera.

Greg:

Who’s the Daryl from Pittsburgh?

Jonny:

We are live on the radio! What are you doing!

Greg:

We are very serious about what we do.

Jonny:

And I am just horrified. And all of a sudden, I hear, okay, that’s Jonny Hartwell… And they sent me the tape of it. I will never watch that tape. I was so embarrassed.

Greg”

My most embarrassing, I land in Orlando for an interview. Okay. I get picked up. They take me to the conference room. I sit there, I’m in the wrong room. I jumped in the wrong car. Nope. Different day. But yeah, I did. I was, I was ready to be interviewed. And I’m like, wow, this place has Prudential way too much all over the walls because it was a client of whatever. And I was like, they’re like, you’re not… I’m like, nope. And I’m like, you’re not… I literally jumped in the wrong car. Went for an interview, sat in the conference room. And they were, I wondered why they weren’t being very attentative to me. And so like, they, they, they finally come in and I’m realizing I’m in the total wrong company. I had to go back. I got the job though. It was good.

Jonny:

Oh nice. Good.

Greg:

That was good. So anyhow, Jonny, as I expected, it was a delight to talk to you. And we appreciate y’all doing Pittsburgh. I also know you’re very involved in some charities, which we appreciate. So, you know, you got a big heart, and we appreciate it.

Jonny:

The Alzheimer’s Association, my mother had Alzheimer’s, so it’s near and dear to my heart. Hair Peace Charities, American Cancer Society.

Greg:

You know what’s fun about being successful like you are, and having a voice, is you get to make a difference. And that’s cool.

Jonny:

You know, and I, you know, I do the Sunday morning programs, the, the public affairs programs for iHeart. And because I do, I really think that the, the nonprofits here in Pittsburgh do such great work.

Greg:

Phenomenal.

Jonny:

Yeah. And Pittsburghers take care of Pittsburghers. And I’d like to be part of that tradition.

Greg:

Yeah. I was listening to a couple of other podcasts over the last couple of days, and they said to have happiness, you have to serve others.

Jonny:

Hmm. I agree.

Greg:

Like if you really going to be happy in your heart, you have to serve others. And then that, that, that leads to happiness more than, you know, buying the next car. It’s serving others.

Jonny:

Yeah well, you know, so I’m, I’m part of I’m in the Diogenes form of my life right now. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the philosopher who, he was a Greek philosopher who lived in a wine cask and didn’t need anything. He had a bowl and a tunic. That’s all he owned. He saw a young boy drinking from a cup, saw, from his hands rather. And he said, I don’t need this cup. And so all, he said, I can drink water from my hands. So I think if you can, in your mind say, you know what, I just want to serve other people. I don’t need anything. I can live in a wine cask and still be happy. And so I think a lot of people just need more stuff, and I’m just not there. That’s not where my head is.

Greg:

Well at least know why you got this stuff; you know what I mean? Like, I understand the why behind the purchase. So we just bought a place in in Florida and the reason for it wasn’t so I could have a place in Florida. So it’s because I wanted to share moments with my children. And so like the why behind is different. Right? So I’m visualizing being there for Thanksgiving with them and really, really spending time with my children and grandchildren, parents. So I think at least you got to know why.

Jonny:

Yeah. And if you’re spending time with family, isn’t that—

Greg:

What it’s about?

Jonny:

That’s what everything’s about.

Greg:

That’s what it’s about. So anyhow, Jonny, thank you so much. I really enjoyed this.

Jonny:

This was fun. We should do it again.

Greg:

Always. Thanks.

Greg:

Thanks for listening. If you’d like to hear other subject matters that may be of interest to you. Please check us out at confluenceFP.com/podcasts.

Confluence Financial Partners — Navigating the Healthcare Landscape | Episode #16

Greg:

Among all individuals, out-of-pocket spending total $407 billion in 20191. Imagine that.

Greg:

Hi, this is Greg Weimer with Confluence Financial Partners and welcome to our podcast, Imagine That. I have a guest with me today that touches all of us and it is Brett Semonian. And he’s going to be talking to us about healthcare and health insurance. And how we protect ourselves. And if you don’t think you need to be protected, guess what? If you go into an intensive care, the average intensive care visit for a person is about a million dollars.2

So when we meet with our clients and we try and help them, you know, prepare for their retirement and enjoy their golden years and protect themselves along the way, health insurance is obviously a huge part of that. And when we sit down with our clients, it’s when they go to retire, it’s like the thing, it’s like the thing that really makes them nervous. And so we were actually, the way and— I’ll back up. What caused us to start thinking about doing this segment with Bret is we were sitting with very good clients of ours, very good friends. And they said, here’s how, what we’re doing on health insurance. I’m like, okay, who helped you figure all that out? And their faces lit up and they’re like, Bret, this guy, he owns Flintrock Capital Management, and he’s really helped us. You should meet with them. I’m like, I want to meet that person. He may be able to help some of our other clients. So I called Bret.

I said, hey, this is Greg. Brett help. We want to talk about this. And so I, when he came in, I was impressed. And I think all of you on the, that are listening will be impressed also. I mean, Brett has 1,700 clients and is in the business now for 15 years. So he’s helped some of our clients navigate through health insurance.

So here’s the things we’re going to talk about. Like first, how in the heck do you choose a plan? I think there’s like 75 or there’s so many plans out there, right? I mean, how do you choose? I mean, it’s a big decision. So how do you choose? There’s this thing coming out, or that is out, I guess, called Pennie plan. What? And if you haven’t heard of a Pennie plan, it’s important because it’s not asset-based, it’s income-based if I understand it correctly.

So we’re gonna talk about how you choose a plan. Then we’re going to talk about a Pennie plan. Now that is specific to the state of Pennsylvania for those listening outside. And then we’re gonna talk about like Medicare 101, like let’s just go through like Medicare 101. You know, let’s dumb it down for like, people like me so we can simplify it, so then understand it. And then we’ll talk a little bit about the donut hole. Everybody talks about it, makes it sound so scary, donut hole, right? So what’s going on with the donut hole? So we’re going to touch on those. We’re going to go through them relatively quick, but we’re going to try to make it meaningful for everyone out there. So at the end of this, 20 to 30 minutes, you say, you know what? I’m glad I listened, because at least now I’m protected from an event that could cost a million dollars and sabotage my whole retirement or my family’s inheritance or whatever. So, Bret welcome. We appreciate you being here. Let’s start if you will, with how in the world do you choose a plan?

Bret:

That is the biggest question that people have, and it’s confusing. There are resources out there for you to be able to pick the right plan. It will depend on whether or not you have income and how high is that income. Okay. If you are under a certain threshold for your income, you may end up on a medical assistance plan. In that case, the state is going to help you with that. So whenever we look at Marketplace plans, and the Marketplace came out in 2013 for 2014 effective dates, okay? With that, you were able to apply for advanced premium tax credits, and that would help to reduce the premium of your plan. With that being income-based, okay? If you were over a certain threshold, you don’t get any tax credits, which probably a lot of your clients would fall into that. Okay? So at that point you have two options. You can either shop directly with the insurance company, or you can still go through the Marketplace. Now, starting in 2020 for 2021 effective date, Pennsylvania started using Pennie, Pennie.com, same as the Marketplace, but it’s now state run instead of federally run. Right? So with that same plans, same tax credits, we just use a different website.

Greg:

Yup.

Bret:

Okay. So when you go in, if you qualify for tax credits, it will come off of your monthly premium. If you don’t, you can just buy your plan directly.

Greg:

So let’s back up. So it’s, income-based, not asset-based.

Bret:

Correct.

Greg:

So someone has $2 million. That’s how they save for their retirement in their IRA. Right? They live with inside their means, and they don’t really have any other income, they’re in their sixties, obviously… They could qualify, correct?

Bret:

Correct.

Greg:

Even though they have $2 million in their IRA, they could qualify?

Bret:

Correct.

Greg:

Remarkable. When I say qualify, like their premiums for healthcare could be blank?

Bret:

It is potential that it could be as low as $0.

Greg:

How high can their income be that they can be zero?

Bret:

So that’s, I can scale because it’s based on age.

Greg:

Okay.

Bret:

Okay. So the older you are, the more you’re allowed to make. It also depends if you have a spouse, if you have dependence.

Greg:

Yup.

Bret:

So all of that, there’s an algorithm that the computer figures out and it would be able to spit out what you qualify for tax credit.

Greg:

So right there is why it’s so important for us to be comprehensive and have people like you around to pick your brain. Because, you know, when we meet with our clients, we want to make sure that we understand their tax ramifications of making decisions. So it’s, you know, what, if they’re taking, you know, X amount out this year in their IRA and they create income, right? So we, we need to watch all of that and then check in with you to see if it’s going to affect their healthcare.

Bret:

Yes. That is a big mistake that I see, is people think it’s just income, as in what I’m getting monthly. They forget that they take an IRA distribution, and that is taxable income that counts as income on Pennie. So that could potentially take you from receiving tax credits to losing your tax credit.

Greg:

Okay. So let’s put that in parentheses. So the first bullet point, for people listening, if you have a lot of assets in Pennsylvania that does not mean that you couldn’t qualify for tax credits and apply for Pennie because it’s income-based, not asset-based. So that’s where if someone’s like listening and going like, hey, we don’t have that much money in our joint accounts or whatever. It’s all in IRAs. That’s where we, you know, just, you know, bullet point, as you’re driving down the road right now, you’re driving down 79. You know what I mean? You probably should call us, and we’ll put you in touch with Brett and you guys should have a conversation. And hey, that was a pretty valuable five minutes.

Bret:

Yeah. And the nice thing is I have a calculator that I can actually put—

Greg:

I have a calculator, too.

Bret:

We all do now on our phones. So I have a calculator that I can put in all your demographics, your income and everything. And it will get me a close number. It might not be to the exact dollar, but it’ll get me a close number if you qualify. So then we can do an adjustment and see, you know, what if maybe if you take a thousand less, maybe if you take 10,000 less out of your IRA, this is what we can do.

Greg:

So now they know, because we helped that person. Now there’s that person saying, yeah, that’s really great, but I have a lot of income. How do I decide? Because my experience has been, you know, when, when people go to retire, this is like their question! Like, it doesn’t matter how much money they have. They just want to make sure they’re covered. Because I think, you know, most people have a plan at work and I think 75% of plans, you know, we, as our firm, most of you know, we have Corporate Services, we help people through this. We help companies through this. Most companies, I think 75% have one provider3. So this is an easy thing. I work for X company forever. They tell me I have UPMC, I have Highmark. So, but what happens is, you know, they say, hey, XYZ company says, here’s the healthcare plan.

And then you, that’s what you get, then you retire. And you’re like, oh, there, the question we get is, okay, what do we do? What do we do about healthcare? And by the way, in our plans, we put healthcare in a lot of our plans because people think they’re able to be able to retire someday. And then we throw healthcare in, and it totally blows up the plan. It just blows it up. So we put healthcare in, but then, okay, we put it in, and we help them budget for it. But then they’re like, okay, I never had this choice before in my life. Now I have this choice called healthcare. And like, for us, it’s easy, we call Bret. But and then we have some other folks we call also. But so how do they decide? Like what should they be looking for? Cause we, you and I were talking, I think a month or two ago, there’s also some, some shady characters out there. Yes.

Bret:

So number one, you need to figure out which hospital system you want access to, because some plans have access to both hospital systems. Some plans have access to only their hospital system. Okay? So we have to figure out number one, what hospitals and doctors do you want to choose? Because that’s going to help dictate which path we go down that helps to narrow at least half the plans right there. Okay? From there, we want to find somebody that can help us. We need to find somebody that’s both experienced and knowledgeable. And there’s a difference there you can be in the industry a long time. That’s experience. Doesn’t mean you’re knowledgeable. So you need somebody that has both skillsets.

Greg:

Okay.

Bret:

They’re going to be able to help you navigate through the plans, the different deductibles. And at the end of the day, it should be very easy. If you’re working with somebody who knows what they’re doing, they can take 40 plans and put it down to two. Okay? But if you’re doing this by yourself, you have to be very aware of what you’re looking at. Choose your hospitals, choose your doctors. Also be careful on medications. Okay? Big mistake that I see a lot of people make is, let’s say they’re taking Synthroid. They’re actually probably taking levothyroxine, the generic, but they’ve been told it’s Synthroid, the name brand. So they’ll go and type in Synthroid and see it’s not covered. And they don’t know why, they think, why can’t I get my Synthroid? You can. But it’s a generic levothyroxine, a simple mistake like that can cause you to pick the wrong plan. And it’s, we see it all the time.

Greg:

Just listening to you. You, you have so much knowledge in this area, but the other thing I appreciate about Bret, I will tell you when we sat down to like, okay, if you talk to our clients, let’s be real clear. We don’t do gray. Right? We don’t, we don’t do gray. You’ve got to treat them right. And that’s what you do. You, you really do take care of the 1,700 folks that you serve. So, and you were, I guess you can’t mention it, but you were talking about a certain commercial. And like, it was, I just remember, you’re like, it’s a scam. And you were talking about a certain athlete that’s like, you know, looks really honest, then people I think buy into that. Right? But it’s a trap, right?

Bret:

So marketing has really changed the, this whole robo call thing that we’re going through now, you know, I’m probably going to get 18 calls about a car warranty today.

Greg:

Right.

Bret:

So what they’ve done, they’ve done—

Greg:

So you don’t think they’re real?

Bret:

What the car warranties? Probably not.

Greg:

There’s another tip for everybody.

Bret:

Not really.

Greg:

Not really.

Bret:

So what they’ve done is they’ve done reverse marketing. Now, now you do a buzz point on TV, get people really excited. They call you instead of you calling them. But when they call you, they think that you’re knowledgeable. They believe what you say, because they’re reaching out to you. If you call them first, they typically hang up because you’re a telemarketer. So it’s this reverse telemarketing. And they’re preying on that.

Greg:

They’re driving traffic into their 800 number or website or whatever.

Bret:

Correct and those people, they simply sit there. They read off a script. Their job is, as we say in the industry is churn and burn. Get through as many people as you can try to enroll as many people as you can. And what they do, they don’t actually do an analysis of your healthcare. What they do is they look for one hot button issue, say, oh, I can save you $10 a month on your premium. Great. Sign me up. You don’t realize that now your co-pays are higher.

Greg:

And they’re preying on the vulnerable.

Bret:

Yes. It’s the Medicare people, the people that are oftentimes doing this by themselves, they’re confused, possibly. They don’t have family to help them. Those are the people that they’re preying on. Just like we see all these other scans with money stuff. It’s all the same.

Greg:

Right, right, right, right, right. So okay. So if I’m about to retire in six months, when should I start thinking about this? Like when do you typically start helping people navigate through the healthcare?

Bret:

It depends on your age and your situation. Okay? If you are going to be turning 65 and six months, the typical timeframe is three months before is when we can really start the planning process. Okay? Let’s say you’re under 65. It’s really not a bad time. Six months out, to touch base. Okay? I tell my clients six months is more than, more than fine because we want to come up with a game plan. We don’t want to, a month before, have to scramble and get stuff done. Right. Okay. Because for instance, if you’re under 65, it may make sense for you to go into COBRA. You might not want to go into Pennie or buy a plan directly from the healthcare carrier, COBRA might be your better option, especially because with COBRA, if you’ve already satisfied your deductible that calendar year, why pick up a new plan where your deductible starts over? It doesn’t make any sense. So oftentimes I’ll tell people, finish the year on COBRA, in the fall, we’ll get you set up for January. Okay? With Medicare, you want to start that process, Social Security does not allow you to start the enrollment into Medicare A and B until three months before the effective date of A and B. So if you’re going to start on November 1st, August 1st is the first day that you can start that process.

Greg:

Okay. So you just said a and B and I think most people were aware of A and B, but some people may think it’s Antonio Brown. So can you just give a quick overview of A and B?

Bret:

The only thing that Medicare provides is Medicare A and B. And on your card, when you get your Medicare card, you’re going to see three things. You’re going to see Medicare part A with the effective date, Medicare part B with an effective date and your Medicare claim number. So Medicare part A that is inpatient hospital care. Okay? So staying overnight in the hospital, deemed as inpatient, skilled nursing facility, also blood work, stuff like that in the hospital. It is a deductible and co-insurance program, Medicare. Okay? So for instance, if you go into the hospital, you have a deductible that covers you for the first 60 days. After that. If you’re still in the hospital day 61 through 90, you’re going to have a per day charge. 91 through 150, another per day charge. Okay. With Medicare part B, if A is your inpatient, simple, B is outpatient. Okay? So that is your doctor visits. Those are surgeries, outpatient surgeries, anything not staying overnight in the hospital, that is what’s covered under Medicare part B. There is a small annual deductible. Currently it’s $203. After that is satisfied. We go into an 80/20 plan. 80% is paid by Medicare. 20% is paid by you. Problem is no stop-loss. That’s what people don’t realize. That’s the number one reason why you don’t want to stay on only original Medicare. So there’s no stop-loss to it. You rack up a million dollars in outpatient charges, chemotherapies, or cancer treatments. You’re going to pay 200,000.

Greg:

Wow. Okay. So that’s good to know. Good to know. My guess is most people are not aware of that. So one of the things we’ve said, you know, Medicare 101 I guess you just did the Medicare 101 for the most part. Right? Is there anything else you’d like to add?

Bret:

Well, I think it’s important to talk about what the options are then. If people are saying, well, if I’m not going to stay on just original Medicare, what, what do I choose?

Greg:

Right.

Bret:

Okay? So when we take a look at plans, we’re not talking company-specific, we’re just talking in general. We have two main options to choose from. We have one called Medigap policies, also known as Medicare supplements. And we have Medicare Advantage plans. Both are good. Both have drawbacks. What I do is when I sit down with somebody, you really have to figure out and diagnose, which is going to be their better option. There’s no one set plan for everybody. So Medigap policies, very simple. You stay on original Medicare. It is simply insurance you buy to cover the out-of-pocket that normally you would have had to pay in Medicare. So it’s paying that 20% for you.

Greg:

Right.

Bret:

It’s paying those copays.

Greg:

With the limit, or no?

Bret:

No, it covers everything. Okay?

Greg:

Got it.

Bret:

So, the nice thing about it is Medicare federal program, works in all 50 states. Okay. So a Medigap policy does not change that. It’s a non-network plan. So you can go to any doctor, any hospital that accepts Medicare in the country, no referrals.

Greg:

It’s paying your portion.

Bret:

It’s paying your report. Correct.

Greg:

I.e., gap.

Bret:

What’s that?

Greg:

I.e., gap.

Bret:

Yes. Right, exactly. Yes. So very comprehensive. I use this for A, people who travel a lot. Maybe you have a home in Florida, you’re down there for six months and you want to have doctor visits down there. Okay? Or you’re going on a lot of vacations. Great for travel for people with chronic conditions, also very good, because there are limitations to Medigap policies. You’re not always guaranteed to get them. You only have certain periods in your enrollment phase where you’re allowed to get Medigap policies. After that, you have to pass medical underwriting. So we want to be careful, if somebody—

Greg:

What’s those windows?

Bret:

So when you are turning 65 or going on to Medicare for the first time, you’re able to buy a Medigap policy guarantee. Okay? Also from the time—

Greg:

It doesn’t matter your health; no nurse shows up at your door. None of that.

Bret:

None of that. None of it.

Greg:

Perfect.

Bret:

So, from that point on, the first six months that you were on Medicare, you are in your open enrollment for Medigap policy. You can pick one up at any time. Okay? After that initial six months, you have to pass medical underwriting to be able to get it. So that’s why—

Greg:

And at that age, it’s not a slam dunk.

Bret:

It’s not.

Greg:

And then, people feel like, oh, I’ll be healthy forever. But I think you feel like that until you’re not like that. So. Right.

Bret:

Exactly.

Greg:

And so it sounds like, okay, that’s really good information. Yeah.

Bret:

So we want to make sure that when working with a client, we really look at their health because that will have an effect. And I always told people, we’re not planning for today. We’re planning for 20 years from now. So where do we see ourselves in 20 years? On the flip side, we have Medicare Advantage plans. Okay? Very good. And I tell you what, when I started, eh, they weren’t that great. In the last four or five years, the funding to them has really increased. And we’re seeing fantastic plans now. They cover dental, vision, hearing, over-the-counter products. It’s unbelievable. So they are great plans, and we are seeing more people go that route because they are a cheaper premium as well. Some of the drawbacks are that, now you are going to have copays for some of your services. Okay. You might pay for a hospital stay. Might only be $300 depending on your insurance. Okay? It’s not going to break the bank, but you still have copays now. Also, we have to be careful because they are network plans. So you have to go to doctors and hospitals who take it. Now we have carriers in this area that work in up to 42 states. Okay? So for people who travel, I will lean towards certain Medicare Advantage plans if they want to go that route. But we have to be careful. We have to watch that it is in network. You can’t just necessarily go where you want to go. Okay. one of the nice things, though, it includes drug coverage. On Medigap policies, it does not include drug coverage. So we have to buy another policy that covers drugs. So the cost can start to add up there. Okay? But at the end of the day, it’s whatever makes you feel best.

Greg:

From a cost standpoint is one typically more expensive than the other?

Bret:

Medigap is definitely more expensive, monthly premium. And typically drugs are more expensive because the majority of drug plans out there that are stand-alone drug plans, you have a deductible before your plan kicks in for name brands. Whereas on most Medicare Advantage plans, we don’t see a deductible, it’s day one copays.

Greg:

So, your job is really, I mean, you act as consultant. You sit down and you learn all about them. So then you can help them navigate which plans correct for them.

Bret:

When I sit down with somebody, I’m basically interviewing them because I need to get this info to be able to process, what am I going to recommend for you. Often, what you do with your clients as well.

Greg:

Right, and you can see how this is so important because if we help people with their wealth and we don’t have them, have them think about their health, it’s shallow. I mean, it’s not complete. It’s not comprehensive. Whether it’s, whether it’s a company, you know, these companies are out there spending, I think 82% of typical premiums are paid by companies right now4. And you look at that. And I look at that, go, man, the employees don’t even know what they have! And then the employers are paying all this money and they don’t, and the employees don’t know what they have. That’s our reason for corporate services.

The reason we talk to you is now they go to retire and now they have the decision to make on their own and people are confused. And so instead of like, really enjoying that day, they’ve looked forward to forever, when they’re able to retire. They’re like, oh my gosh, what do I do about my rollover stress? Right? It should be happy. Stress. What do I do about healthcare? I mean, my healthcare was always taken care of now, what do I have? There’s all these different plans, Medigap, Advantage. Like, you know, then let’s go— Like the thing that frightens people, which is funny to me, is the donut hole. Do you wanna talk about the donut hole? This is like, what about the donut hole? It’s like people talk about it like it’s the Bermuda triangle. It’s like, what’s going on with the donut hole?

Bret:

Yes. That is what I get asked about the most.

Greg:

Crazy!

Bret:

People are so nervous about it, and I don’t blame them.

Greg:

I know, but how much is the donut hole?

Bret:

So here’s how the donut hole works. I don’t think very many people understand how it actually works. So when you go and fill a prescription, you might even have a $0 copay. You think, okay, it’s free. Well, no, it’s not. Because there’s a cost. There is a cost that the insurance is paying. So what the government does, they track not only what you pay, but what the insurance pays. So their tracking the actual cost, when that actual cost in 2021 hits $4,130, every drug plan in America stops. This is the donut hole. So we have to all 50 states, it’s every drug plan. It’s not just a Pennsylvania thing. Now what happens is you pay 25% of the cost of the medication.

Okay? Now sometimes that makes your drug less. Oftentimes it makes it more expensive. Okay? Now what the government does is they track the 25% that you pay the 70% that the manufacturers paying. So 95%, what they don’t—.

Greg:

I was going to say, we’re missing five.

Bret:

Right. What they don’t track is the 5% that the insurance pays. So when you’re in the donut hole, they’re tracking 95%. Once the out-of-pocket then reaches 65/50 in 2021. Now what happens? You hit catastrophic coverage. That’s a good thing.

Greg:

Sounds horrible.

Bret:

It does. It does. But it’s good in the cost perspective. So at that point, you’re either gonna, I have a very small copay, or you’re going to pay 5%. Whichever is greater. Problem is that resets January 1st. So if you hit your donut hole in December, January, it’s gonna reset, which is a good thing there. Okay? But if you’re in catastrophic coverage, now your drugs are actually going up starting January one.

Greg:

So but your maximum exposure to a donut? Like, what’s the most the donut hole costs?

Bret:

Well, that’s based on the cost of your meds.

Greg:

So it could be unlimited.

Bret:

It could be. For instance, we see a lot of these very expensive drugs on TV, all the ads, okay? Oftentimes these drugs are five, six, $700 per month. I’ve got clients that are on two and three and four of those. Okay? It just, you stay at 5%. Once you get catastrophic coverage, you stay at 5% for the rest of the year, based on whatever, until January 1st hits and you start over. One of the biggest things that cause people to go into the donut hole in the past has been insulin. And this is another thing that people don’t realize, especially if they’re not working with somebody, there are new insulin programs available. Only certain insurances cover it. Okay? But the way that it works is, you pay $35 per month copay for your insulin all year round. It does not go into the donut hole. That’s huge. I’ve got people in two and three insulins that say, I can’t afford them in the donut hole. I can’t afford 25%. Well, now, if you’re aware of these programs, you can have it for $35 year-round, which is fantastic.

Greg:

I’m listening to you and I’m thinking like, no wonder people when they go to retire. Right? I mean, because there’s so much information, it’s confusing to people. And as people get older, trying to process all of that and make good decisions about something that’s not their area of expertise. It’s frightening for people. I get it. I get it.

What did we miss? So like, if you said like, hey, I wish you would have asked me this because people out there should really know blank. What should they really know?

Bret:

I think what they need to know most is don’t just pick a plan because your neighbor or your friend has it. I see a lot of people—

Greg:

I see it.

Bret:

Yeah. A lot of people, they get so overwhelmed.

Greg:

Aunt Sue had that one. I’m going to get what Aunt Sue—

Bret:

Exactly. That is so detrimental. Okay? If you’re healthy, you’re not really using it, you might not know that you have a problem. But when you need your healthcare most, you need to know how it works. And just picking a plan because your friend said, I love it.

Greg:

Right.

Bret:

I get a free gym membership.

Greg:

Right.

Bret:

What if you don’t go to the gym?

Greg:

Right.

Bret:

So that’s, that’s a big mistake that I see. When I sit down with people, I’ve had husbands and wives on separate plans and it’s because they have different needs. It’s okay to pick a different plan, pick the plan based on your needs, not by somebody else’s right.

Greg:

Good to know. And, you know, this is serious stuff. I not only, I mentioned earlier that, you know a prolonged illness can cost a million dollars if you have to go to the intensive care. So, I mean, that’s meaningful, but also when you think about things that can blow up your retirement, 62.1% of bankruptcies are caused by high medical bills5. So helping ensure that risk away is incredibly important for everyone, not just people that are ready to retire. And we really, I mean, we really appreciate the information.

Bret:

Yes, you’re welcome. And I will say, to talk about that bankruptcy. One of the biggest bills that I see caused in the healthcare industry is cancer. Okay? There is something so simple as putting a little cancer policy on yourself. It has changed the lives for many of my clients, because if they’re on something like Medicare Advantage, we have an out-of-pocket maximum, maybe it’s 6,500, 7,500 — that’s calendar year. So if you hit it in December, but you’re still getting treatments in January, you could hit it again. We might see 15,000 out-of-pocket.

Greg:

Yeah.

Bret:

So what we’ve seen lately is putting a cancer policy on people. They get a lump sum amount.

Greg:

Totally right. And so I’m looking outside the window and I see Mario Haifa who works for us in our Corporate Services, and he does voluntary, but one of the things he does, benefits, but part, obviously part of that voluntary benefits. And if he would hear us speaking right now, he’d be like, call me in coach, call me in coach! Because that’s what he talks about. It’s like, there’s, there’s cancer policies that you can have that can protect you. And he’s always, you know, at this table, actually on Tuesday mornings, when we do our meetings, he’s always jumping up and down that, you know, we need to talk about that more. And employers should have that available to their employees. And you, you obviously talk to your clients about that. Also extremely important. And let’s be honest for a lot of us, that’s what we worry about. What happens if us or our loved one, what if we get cancer? I mean, it’s a, it’s a big, it’s a big worry. So not only do you need to try to navigate through the medical community, which is equally complicated, now you’re trying to navigate, how are we going to pay for this? Right? And you’re making decisions based on money, not based on your health. Right? So great information. So thank you, Bret. We really, really appreciate it. And we look forward to continuing to connect. Thank you so much for taking care of our clients.

If anyone listening has additional questions, we’re always here for you on this topic. Thank you. Thanks for listening. If you’d like to hear other subject matters that may be of interest to you, please check us out at ConfluenceFP.com/podcasts.

Confluence Financial Partners — Confluence Corporate Services | Episode #14

Greg:

Roughly 31% of those that have access to a 401k are not participating1. Imagine that.

Greg:

This is Greg Weimer, partner with Confluence Financial Partners. Welcome to our Imagine That podcast. Today’s an interesting day. Well, first of all, it’s interesting because we’re in our new building in the South Hills, so that’s fun. So, this is our first podcast. It feels meaningful that we’re in our first podcast, in the new building, but also, we have two newer associates with us, Mario Haifa, and Brian Stout. I’ll get into who they are in a minute, but for the listeners, whether you’re a current client or potential client, or just an interested listener, you know, if I were you, I’d be saying, okay, so why in the world would I listen to this? This is a corporate services. I’m not a corporate. And like, what is that? We’re going to intro our corporate services department and why we think it’s so important to helping folks improve their outcome.

Second, we’re going to talk about trends in the 401k and benefits arena. And then third, we’re going to talk about what we need to do together to improve outcomes. And so right now someone’s saying, okay, that’s cool, but I’m not an employee. I’m already retired, does this matter to me? And I would say that if you have a child, if you have a loved one, if you know someone that owns a business, this is major stuff going on right now. And if you care about them and you really want to help them increase their outcome, if you could just help them think differently about how they’re organizing their benefits, how they’re preparing for their retirement, there’s an epidemic going on right now with, I think people not being prepared. I think it’s a virus. Coronavirus, hopefully, God-willing, is coming to an end.

The virus that continues is, there are people that working today that have— they do not have a likelihood of being able to retire and they have to work, and they don’t have financial freedom. And that’s tragic. It’s tragic for employers, tragic for employees, because if an employer has an employee that would rather not be there, that’s not good. And then there’s people that aren’t fully protected. There’s benefits that we need to make sure people have that in case there’s an unexpected setback, are they covered? And so, you know, this is an important, it’s an important conversation. It’s important conversation for the community. So just think as you’re listening, you know, who can I talk to? How can we help? And working together, we can really make a difference in people’s lives. So Brian, if you could introduce yourself and you know, a little bit about, you know, where you’ve been and then why you came to Confluence Financial Partners, and then we’ll turn it over to Mario. I get to rest. Go ahead, Brian.

Brian:

Thanks Greg. My name is Brian Stout. I am the Director of Retirement Consulting and I have been in the retirement industry for, I guess, going on 25 years now. And I’ve spent time working with national retirement plan recordkeeping companies. I’ve spent time at smaller regional retirement consulting firms and recently joined Confluence a few months ago and really just joined because I loved Greg’s passion. And I love the passion here at Confluence to change people’s lives, to make differences, and to really have my fingerprints on the process of helping small-to-midsize companies in the region, as well as helping their participants, you know, reach their retirement goals. And that’s, that’s what my job is all about. And that’s what I wake up and enjoying doing every day.

Greg:

Wonderful. Mario.

Mario:

My name is Mario Haifa. I’m the Director of Insurance Consulting here at Confluence Financial Partners, representing Corporate Services, had the pleasure of working in the insurance business for over 20 years. I’ve had the opportunity to represent mostly on the voluntary benefits side. A lot of you may have heard of the Aflac duck. That that was my previous background for a long time, served in various roles, but primarily working with small-to-midsize business owners in the community here in Western Pennsylvania, throughout Pennsylvania and nationally. The why, why Confluence made an opportunity for me to be here. I just loved their foundational approach and how they take care of their clients. And when Greg and I talked last fall, and we just started talking about what, what Confluence does. And the years I served in the insurance business, it just made so much sense to bring that years of experience into a firm like this and serve their clients and not only their existing, but future clients differently. And I think Greg said it better, best earlier — how does benefits play a role in your retirement and your future? And I truly feel benefits can have an important impact on the decisions you make today to protect tomorrow’s investments that you’re making.

Greg:

Welcome both of you. So fired up to have you. And I’ll just give you an insight like just yesterday morning — it was morning, right? — when we went in the whiteboard room, that was like fun. So we go into, so we’re saying, how do we reinvent, you know, corporate services? How do we really help employees and employers? So we went in, we have a room here that’s — all four walls are — is a grease board. So we went in there with markers, scribbled all over the walls, and really, we were brainstorming about how we can help employers and employees. So, okay, I gotta — let’s just, for me, it’s an elephant in the room. What in the world’s up with that duck? Let’s start there. Like everybody, everybody talks about like Aflac and voluntary benefit, you know, and like, the kid from Johnstown, right, that just thinks the duck is like a cool commercial. What’s the importance of a voluntary benefit that Aflac would represent?

Mario:

Absolutely. And Aflac certainly is the biggest player in the marketplace, but ever since the duck, through evolution of benefits, and one thing I’ve noticed over the last 20 years, a lot of different companies entered the space. And the why behind it is, you know, health insurance and benefits offered at an employer through a corporate insurance spend are essential to a foundational approach to benefits. You know, they take care of your hospitals and doctors when you get sick or hurt, right? But one of the things that always seem to be a blind spot and why I felt voluntary benefits played such an essential role in the overall benefit package of an employee offering was that out-of-pocket exposure that was the blind spot. And most employers—

Greg:

Could that be the deductible, or no?

Mario:

It could be the deductible, but mostly, and a question I ask employers all the time, what do you have in place if your employee had to leave work because their spouse or child was going through something? Some of them will say short-term disability, but that covers the employee. And I remind them to say, if their employee or spouse was going through a major accident or illness. So ultimately what—

Greg:

Here’s a great stat that sort of backs that up.

Mario:

Sure.

Greg:

Cause you know, one of the things you can do, right, is you could, another voluntary benefit would be disability. Is that true?

Mario:

Sure.

Greg:

Yeah. I just read this this morning. It makes no sense, by the way, I’m reading this stat. Like people don’t even think about like what it’s saying. I think I can interpret what they’re trying to say.

Mario:

Right.

Greg:

So, but I was reading about this, it says, “most Americans are better prepared financially to die than to become disabled.” Here’s what these people write and no one questions. “…Although the chances are at least three to five times greater of a disability occurring2.” Now I’m going to tell you you’re way more likely to die than become disabled. Like, that’s just a given, right?

Mario:

Sure.

Greg:

I think what they’re saying is if you buy a term insurance, like more people buy life insurance and don’t use it.

Mario:

Right.

Greg:

Then like a voluntary benefit like disability. Right? So there’s an example.

Mario:

Absolutely. So ultimately, the foundational idea of a voluntary benefit is to help people maintain the lifestyle they were used to before they got sick or hurt, right? And if, if somebody goes through an accident or a major health event, these programs are going to put cash in hand to these policy holders to help them maintain the lifestyle they were used to. And whatever they do with this money is up to them. They can use it for house payments, car payments, putting groceries on the table. Certainly, they can use it for copay and deductible, but that’s not the element that affects them the most, that copay and deductible. It’s the cost of living. Just maintaining that lifestyle.

Greg:

Okay, I got more stats, like you’re like, you’re like saying things, I’m trying to learn about this, right? So, I’m not trying to kill everybody with stats, but like, nearly 46% of all foreclosures on conventional mortgages are caused by a disability. Only 2% by a homeowner’s death.

So when you think of, like, right? So, you think about that, something happens , and you have to foreclose. Here’s something else, most income owners, regardless of income level (so the more you make, the more you spend) have spending commitments that consume 65 to 75% of their normal cashflow2. So what that means is like, there’s not much margin for error there. So, if something happens, like you’re saying Mario, then these folks, they need something to protect them during that incident that happens on that 65 to 75% of their income.

Mario:

Greg, the reality is, 65% of employees have less than a thousand dollars set aside in savings for a catastrophic event, like a cancer situation, a heart attack, a major accident3. So why does voluntary make the most sense today? You know, during a pandemic, post-pandemic, whatever happens, these programs can have a significant impact, in a positive way, to help people maintain that lifestyle they were used to before that took place.

Greg:

And then think about what that means to the culture, the structure and the fabric of the company, right? So, you have, you have these offerings that you, that you can, that you can give to people, it allows them to protect themselves. And the employer, you know, has an employee that doesn’t have this financial crisis that affects every aspect of their life, including their work-life balance, et cetera. So you know what, let’s pause there, spoiler alert. We’ll like — I think that’s called a hook or whatever it is. I don’t even know. Let’s keep talking about that, but let’s go to 401k. Let’s go to retirement. Cause that, cause the change, even though, you know, I started the business in 1986 and 401ks weren’t that big back then and the change in the trend and 401ks and the shift of responsibility, almost like voluntary benefits, right. It’s like, you know, it used to be the company paid for everything and you know, everything was paid for. Now, it’s like, there’s personal responsibility. We’ve got to own that. We also have to own it in 401ks. So, Brian, could you just give a background of 401ks, what’s going on, and the importance of them today and some of the things you’re seeing?

Brian:

Yeah, certainly. So, you know, as you alluded to Greg, you know, we’re coming from an environment where, you know, my, my father worked for thirty-some years at Bell Telephone Company, right?

Greg:

My dad worked for the gas company! So yeah, it’s like same type of thing.

Brian:

So all he had to do is show up for work every day and put in his time. And at the end of the 30, 35 year run, he walked away with an annual pension. So, Bell Telephone Company would pay him X dollars per month just because of his years of service. Well, those pension plans just became exorbitantly expensive for corporations to continue to maintain. It was just a financial burden. So we shifted from this pension plan/defined benefit plan world to a defined contribution world where it really is incumbent upon the employee (or I’ll refer to it also as the “plan participant”) to save, it’s on us to save for our retirement, with hopefully a little bit of employer contribution to help boost our retirement savings. But the onus is now on the employee. And unfortunately, what the numbers are showing us, and the statistics are bearing this out, is employees are woefully under prepared.

They’re not saving enough. I think they’re overwhelmed by the decisions that they now have to make. And I think that that’s the impact that we can make here, both on the voluntary benefits side, because I think there’s an element of folks just don’t understand these benefits that are being offered, much in the same way with 401ks. I think employees just don’t understand. What am I supposed to do? I have a myriad of investment choices that I now have to choose from, how much am I supposed to save on paycheck to paycheck? And now you’re asking me to, to try to wring the washcloth a little bit more and save more into the 401k. So those are the types of struggles and challenges that employees have. And really, that’s why I think we are layering on top of our delivery, more of holistic approach, right?

It’s, it’s easy just to show up at a workplace and say, yup, everyone should save more. Well, you know what, what if you can’t save more? So let’s take a more holistic approach and let’s figure out what are those barriers that are preventing that employee from saving into the plan or saving more into the plan. And if we can start to knock down some of those barriers and we can kind of clear a path for, you know, what I’ll call it a more prepared financial wellness. And, and those are the types of things that, you know, I’m passionate about, that we care about here inside of the building. And those are the changes that I think that we can help to implement going forward.

Greg:

Because when someone gets to the age to where they want, they want freedom, they don’t want to work anymore. And so they get to whatever that age, 60, 65, 70. So what, what’s really important for us to work with the employer and employee on is when you get to that age, it is in everybody’s best interest that we help you prepare to be ready for that date. Because if you’re not ready for that date, first of all, you don’t want to be there. And if you don’t want to be there, you’re probably not putting your best foot forward. It becomes really expensive for employers, and it becomes, the employees are unhappy, so we need to help. And by the way, not everybody can save more, but there are a chunk of people that can, so like, if we can get people just 2%, if we can get them to just save 2% more, just 2% more, the difference that means in their life is meaningful. It really is. And it doesn’t even reduce our income 2%. Right? I mean, like they gotta understand that.

Brian:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, the whole variable here is when you’re saving into a qualified retirement plan is, these are pretax dollars that are going into the account. So putting in a dollar into the plan actually, you know, has, has tax benefits to you because it’s not a full dollar coming out of your taxable income. So, you know, it’s this challenge though, of trying to teach employees that, you know, whatever your line of work may be, you know, unfortunately this, this 401k plan is, is kind of forcing people into becoming kind of quasi-401k financial specialists. And this isn’t what most employees signed up for. So that’s really our role. And that’s what I see.

You know, my role as the director here of our consulting is, is really putting forward the messaging that meets people where they are, right? So, I’m in my fifties, right? So I care about different things at my stage of life than a 26 year old. But the customary approach that’s been put together in our industry is, you pull a presentation off the shelf, show up at the workplace and everyone hears the same message. That doesn’t work, right? So what I care about is a heck of a lot different than somebody just starting out their career, and we need to make sure that we’re delivering customized, tailored messaging, meeting people where they are in life. And I think that that will hopefully move the needle and get people to understand the importance of saving, the importance of saving more and starting just to make more prudent financial decisions.

You know, we talked a little bit earlier about, you know, the importance of voluntary benefits and, and trying to, you know, take some of that financial stress off of the table. I see a ton of 401k loan applications come through because of people having medical issues that come up, they can’t pay their bills. So they take 401k loans, which diminishes their pot of money. And it just creates this cycle of, instead of using the 401k plan as a savings account, unfortunately it becomes more of a bank account where they try to put a dollar in and take 50 cents out. And that’s just not going to lead to very strong retirement outcomes.

Greg:

So, if I’m in a 401k and I’m, if I’m an employee, I’m an employee, you know, here’s seven things I just scribbled down as you were speaking. One, most people don’t even know there’s a Roth 401k option. And if your 401k doesn’t have a Roth for you, we got to talk about that.

Two. Target date funds. They’re not all the same. Some people are, they’re very different. Not based on the date, there’s some to and through. We should talk about that.

Communication. Communication inside of companies is not good around their benefits. I actually think we can do better at that at Confluence. Match. The employers are making matches, I don’t think they get the credit that they deserve for in the total compensation, the match that’s in there.

Participation. Participation is low. In fact, I have a stat, it’s 38% of people that are in that have a 401k — 31%, I’m sorry — that have a 401k available to them don’t even participate1. That’s tragic.

Asset allocation. You know, it’s just the asset allocation that people are doing. We see it all the time with our existing clients. We try to help them, but the asset allocation — not good. They don’t understand that, you know, this is the last money they’re going to be using for income. We can talk about that.

And then people timing! Oh, the market’s too high. They go to the cash, the markets, do you know what I mean? Or they, or they pick, they pick the fund that did the best last year. I’d pick the fund that did the worst, as long as it’s not a bond fund.

So, like, it’s just, it’s just — so a lot going on there. Right? Okay, Mario, if I’m an employer and I’m an employee, there’s a lot of voluntary benefits. I’m learning that like you could, you could insure yourself away from everything.

Mario:

Sure.

Greg:

From identity theft to cancer, to mental illness, whatever. If you would tell a few, for the listeners, if you would say the one or two voluntary benefits that are like the must haves, you know, like if you’re in business, first thing you do, blue suit. Blue suit, gray suit, second. What are our blue suit and gray suit of voluntary benefits?

Mario:

It’s a great question. But before I answer that, Greg, Brian said something. When I had the chance to meet him a few months ago, I knew quickly how we were going to work together, because our, I think our there’s a lot of synergies on his just philosophy and approach. We had a lot of like-minded ideas and I think the comp— how we complement each other is to understand that this corporate services team is aligned to have a positive impact at the work site.

Greg:

Yeah. And by the way, the other thing, the other component of that we are, we talked about a lot, that may not be obvious to the listener, is that you know, there’s — so this is unusual in that the typical 401k or voluntary benefit, it’s not coordinated. You have someone in there that it’s different. It’s very siloed. It should be more coordinated. And the typical 401k, I can tell you, I’ve seen this firsthand, the typical person has one or two, they’re one-shot wonders. If they have one or two 401ks, it’s because they know the owner. So, they, so that they get the 401k, they have no team, they have no corporate services. They have no real expertise. It’s just like, oh, the owner’s buddy. Yeah. Well, you’re just because you’re the owner’s buddy doesn’t mean that you should have the life, the financial lives of all the employees in there, if you don’t have really people that have the experience you guys do.

So, the other team, part of this team, that’s important for people to understand. We have a group of financial advisors that this is what they do. They work with individuals and they’re, they’re really good at it. We are, we have done a great job working with individuals. And so, we, our financial advisors, can come in and work with the individual. That’s I think different. So these guys work with our financial advisors and bring in the whole team. So it is a service, it’s a department, it’s not just a thing. Okay!

Mario:

Sure.

Greg:

Blue suit, gray suit?

Mario:

Blue suit, the most participated programs are going to be the accident and disability programs. Why? People can relate to accidents every day. I was at my kid’s baseball game yesterday, coaching them. Kid got hit in the mouth with the ball. Quickly ran off the field. Luckily there was a dentist watching the game. So long story short, the kid was fine, but people can understand that quickly. And when you have a program that covers accidents every single day, on or off the job, and whether Johnny’s playing a baseball or Suzie at gymnastics, it’s going to cover you.

Greg:

So here’s the number — 35. If you’re 35 years old, you have a 50% chance of becoming disabled for a 90 day period or longer before you’re 65.2

Mario:

Correct.

Greg:

So you got a 50% chance2. So if you, if you’re running without disability, right, you don’t have a net, like there’s no net, you gotta have a net.

Mario:

Weekend warrior mentality. People just think they’re, depending on what age you are, that that’s a great age that you just shared, it’s the weekend warrior. They want to be— they’re either working in the yard or they’re running a Tough Mudder, something that they’re doing, they’re more vulnerable.

But then, the second tier, the gray suit is going to be your critical care type programs. That covers cancers or heart attacks or strokes or things that are unforeseen like that. Those are the two, the blue suit’s definitely the accident, short-term disability approach. And then the second one is going to be mostly the, the critical care.

Greg:

That’s great. So, you know, for the listeners, I, you know, you may already have these at your, at your place of employment, if not, you should probably ask for them. Cause it makes total sense to me when you look at the statistics on accident. And then we’ve all been affected by someone that we care about having a major medical issue, like a cancer or a stroke or something like that. And that is, that is difficult enough. But then when you add the financial stress on top of the medical stress, that’s, that’s just a dangerous cocktail for a family. So, having that and being protected from that, hopefully provides peace of mind for folks.

Mario:

It does. And you know, I’ve shared this with the team internally. And I think one of the obligations that we have at Corporate Services is to make sure health distress doesn’t lead to wealth distress.

Greg:

Yeah. Yeah. So here, I’m trying to think of as listener, I’m thinking, okay. I hope, I hope people are really like, like, like listening and bringing this into their heart. Because, you know, we spend so much time planning where we want a second home, we spend time planning on where we want to go on vacation. Right? Where are we going for dinner? And I — and some people would say our industry’s a little boring. I hope it’s not. Like, this is how we maximize lives and maximize legacy. This is how we do it.

And by the way, could you hear that? Wait, it’s okay. This is sort of interesting. That white noise? Can you hear the white noise in our firm? Or in the office? This is, I think hopefully helpful to anyone that’s been in our building.

So, in our, in this building, we have white noise. And the white noise is because, you know, our clients, rightfully so, demand privacy. And so, we want to have privacy from office to office. So in the entire building, we have white noise. So you can’t hear from one room to another. To protect people’s privacy. So that’s like — Mike just, just looked at me like, what the heck was that? He’s the producer of this, and he was like, what the heck was that? So that’s the white noise. Yep. So. I don’t know. So I guess that makes it a little more tolerable. Yeah. So, so if, if you’re not interested in voluntary benefits, 401ks, just come over to listen to our white noise. It’s sort of cool. All right. So Brian, I gave you a laundry list of things. Which ones do you think are important to talk about?

Brian:

Well, I got so engrossed listening to you and Mario speak. I kind of forgot what my laundry list was. I remember target date funds and asset allocation. So maybe we start there, right? So, target date funds. This is a kind of a means of investing that has really, really taken shape over, I would say, oh, call it the last 8 to 10 years. And, and the concept is, and it makes just perfect sense. So, the target date fund blends, you know, stocks, bonds, cash, and it blends all of these, these investing components together into a basket. And that basket is really invested based upon how many years you have until you retire. So if someone invested in, let’s say the 2025 fund that is going to be invested a lot more conservatively than somebody who’s investing in the 2065 fund, because we have a lot longer time to invest, to reap returns, to, you know, navigate the waters over a 30-year span versus a five-year timeframe.

So the idea of the target date fund is one in which I think we see the statistics of target dates are attracting. Usually it’s about 70 cents of every dollar that’s going into a 401k plan, goes into a target date fund. And these come in different varieties too. So we have some target date funds that have an end date at age 65, which is the presumed date that, that most employees would, would plan on retiring. We also have some target dates that are set up with a “through” philosophy, which they are, the fund managers are managing that money typically to what they would predict to be that, that individual’s death, which would be, you know, somewhere around the age, 80, 85 using actuarial tables.

Greg:

So with that, so let’s, let’s just think about that as a listener. So, someone just goes in, and they pick a target date fund — 2030, I’m gonna pick a target date fund. I think I’m gonna retire in 2030. And “to” and “through” are, it could be, as different in asset allocation as black and white. And by the way, it could cost someone like a really lot of money if they’re doing “to’s.” And by the way, I’m not being, I just know I’m not being critical — yes, I am — but I don’t mean to be mean about it. But a lot of people that are even now talking about, they don’t know the difference between “to” and “through.” So, they’re like putting these “to” funds in instead of “through,” and it’s just like, just that alone, we can come in and we can say you got “to” or “through,” we can change it. We could, we could, we could really help your outcome in a meaningful way. Is that fair?

Brian:

Very fair. I would venture to guess if you asked an employer or the retirement plan committee at an employer — “to” or “through” fund? 99 and a half percent would say, not sure.

Greg:

Or the owner’s buddy that brought it in.

Brian:

Absolutely. Yep. Yep.

Greg:

I mean they just don’t.

Brian:

They just don’t know. They don’t know. Right. You don’t know what you don’t know.

Greg:

And by the way, the “to,” I mean, you’re not gonna, you’re retiring. Everybody. Like sometimes the dates of retiring and death, you know, they’re the same and there it’s like a different thing. And by the way, your 401k is the last money you use in planning. So, it’s not like you get to 65 — and most people don’t start automatically taking — at least our clients don’t automatically start taking money out of their 401k. They don’t touch that until they’re 72. They use other assets for the first cash flow because of tax savings. So, like, it’s longer term money, but they’re still doing the “to,” which is just bizarre to me.

Brian:

Very true. Yeah. It’s interesting. In fact, we came across a case recently where there were some individual participants that were in their early thirties, and they were investing in a 2015 fund.

Greg:

Ouch.

Brian:

So even though the, you try to put bumpers into place to keep the, you know, the bowling ball in between the lanes with these target date funds, there are still individuals that are clearly lacking the education, lacking the guidance from a financial advisor or, you know, somebody who should be in a position of giving some, some advice or guidance. And even there, the participant is unfortunately thinking they’re doing the right thing and they are not. So there’s, there’s just a ton of education that needs to be done. And, you know, I think we’re, we’re well-equipped to provide that.

Greg:

So it’s a lot of great input guys. Thank you. And it’s I find this really motivating. I, I do. I I’d like to help. I’d like to think that we can help tens of thousands of employees become retirement ready and, and protect themselves from unforeseen events. And this is a mission that we’re on at Confluence. It’s an awful lot of fun. And I got to tell you one of the things that we’ve got to do to make sure this works for employers and employees, because when you look — and I feel like I’m the statistics nut today, but whatever — the top reasons cited for increasing benefits are to retain employees. So to keep employees, 72% and to attract new ones, 58.4

Go to restaurant, can’t find employees. Go to anywhere, you can’t find employees. And a great company is all about employees. Like, you’re as good as your people. Like we want to attract and retain top talent. And if we can do that, we’re going to be great for, we’re going to be great for our clients. But you know, you have to have great benefits.

Now, I’ll just, I’ll let everybody have a little peek under the tent. So my partner, Jim Wilding, and I think everybody listening knows Jim and I are partners. And you know, we, this was about two years ago, you know, we try to have a great culture of fun and work hard and, you know, we have, it’s just fun and we’re really trying to do something special. And we thought, you know, we would take people to Top Golf, and we do, you know, we do, we do whatever. We do things and we get together, and we do, you know, what, during— whatever. We try to make it we try to make it a family atmosphere.

And Jim, to his credit, said like, do you know, we should look at our benefits. Because our benefits were good, not great. And so we, we actually took a step back and said, you know, we can take people to Top Golf all we want, if we’re not protecting and providing for their family through benefits, we’re not getting it done. And it’s just, it’s steak, no sizzle. It’s big hat with no cattle. Figure out how you’re going to say it. So, we went and we totally revamped and rethought about, and, and spent a lot of money on our benefits. And the reason I tell you this, we spent a lot of money, we match everybody, everybody gets 3%. We pay for some of the employees, pay for some of their family. It was a big spend.

And, and here’s the thing. And here’s what we, here’s where we got to work together. I don’t think we’ve done a good job, making sure our associates understand the benefit. That’s just honest. Until you guys came in and we really uncovered this itch that companies and employees have. So this is just being honest and seeing a vulnerability and seeing a blind spot for Greg and Jim. And so we actually are now, the three of us, one of the that’s another thing we talked about recently is, how do we make sure our benefit is actually a benefit? And so, you want to talk about how we can come in and we can work with employers? Because employers spend a lot of money and employees don’t appreciate maybe because they don’t know. And if an employer and employee, I mean, if you have 31% of people have a 401k not participating1, right? It’s got to stop; it’s got to stop.

Mario:

Greg, you said it best. And I think something the pandemic has taught all of us is to have a true vested interest in the people that either work for us, work with us, and are dependent on the decisions that we make. And I think the game changer or one of the biggest value props that we bring to the table is the ability to educate and inform, engage at the work site. And when you sit down with somebody and you peel away the layers of their needs, their lifestyle, their budget, and you can be very strategic on the benefits that make the most sense to those three categories and help them understand how that works. Not only are you protecting the 401k, not only are you protecting that needs, lifestyle and budget of that employee, the employer themselves are going to sit back and say, you know what? I’ve created an environment, not only do I pay them well, or I provide great vacation and sick days, but my employees are happy because they have great benefits and the likelihood of them going down to ABC company and looking somewhere else is going to minimize tremendously. And here at Corporate Services, I truly feel we’re equipped with the resources, the talent, the logistics, the partnerships in the marketplace to come in and have that conversation.

Greg:

So in the movie, in the movie Top Gun, they said, “Maverick, you have to engage, Maverick, you have to engage.” And I guess, I guess the message to everybody listening is — we’ve engaged. So we’ve, we’ve engaged. So we have always been engaged with individuals. We’ve done an okay job with Corporate Services and corporations and, and we’ve always offered to individuals, please come in and we’ll give you a second opinion. I guess today is our way of saying we’ve engaged, we’ve engaged in improving outcomes for individuals. We’re going to help them be able to retire without worry. And we’re going to help them to be able to live without worry of an event that’s going to help or hurt them financially. You know, a medical event or disability or whatever. So I guess it’s our way of saying, we’ve always said to people, if you’re looking for a second opinion and you would like us to give you a second opinion individually, we stand ready to help. We are now saying to employers and employees, if you would like a second opinion, we stand ready to help and would be happy to bring our team and Corporate Services in to create a new standard for benefits and for 401ks.

Thanks for listening. If you’d like to hear other subject matters that may be of interest to you, please check us out at ConfluenceFP.com/podcasts.

SOURCES:

(1) Bureau of Labor Statistics as cited by Financial Samurai.

(2) https://www.affordableinsuranceprotection.com/disability_facts

(3) 2016, Bankrate.com as cited by Forbes.

(4) SHRM Employee Benefits Report, 2018

Confluence Financial Partners — Peak Performance | Episode #13

Dave: And I’m delighted to be here, Greg. Thank you so much for the warm welcome. Hi, everybody out there and
many of you in my native hometown.

Greg: We look forward to learning from you. You should also know Dave is a snazzy dresser. Like I’ll tell you, like, I
think I can wear some, some jackets with a little bit of pop. He just, I see him at a meeting and he just, he
outshines me.

Dave: Well, I consider myself coachable, Greg. That’s a lot of what we’re going to talk about today. I seek the
expert guidance of other really talented people. I have a great tailor who was introduced to me years ago and
he does great work at a great price. So that’s another topic we can discuss sometime.

Greg: Yeah. Why don’t we start out with immune system and I mean, you talk about you, I heard you say things like
cellular performance in the past conversations and biohacking and now with COVID I think it’s top of mind tell
us about the immune system, how we can improve it and more specifically how we can protect ourselves
potentially from COVID.

Dave: Yeah. So what we’re going to talk about today, when you use a term like biohacking and I use the term, I
consider myself a self-proclaimed biohacker, it’s about looking at the body and saying, hey, the human body
has an operating system and that operating system can be hacked based on what we eat, how well we sleep, how well how strong our exercise regimen is basically, how are you performing at the cellular level.
That’s what preventing diseases like COVID is all about and what we’re talking about. And by the way, folks, as I mentioned, I’m not a doctor. Find a functional medicine practitioner. If you’re not receiving the type of
assessment tools that I talk about today, if you don’t feel like your approach to medicine is being customized, that’s what a functional medicine practitioner does because your cells and your DNA is different than mine.
And so you’re going to want to start by assessing, and we’re going to talk about, I’m going to tell you how I measure my sleep. I’m going to tell you the best DNA test. I’ve taken nine of them. I’m going to tell you a
couple of the ones that I highly recommend you take a look at. I’m going to talk about diet and gut health. I’m sure you’re hearing and reading that your gut is your second brain. And how do I get my gut healthy? Well I’ll
tell you an assessment before we were done that you’re going to be able to gauge how healthy your gut is, but all of these tie back, Greg, into how is my body operating on a cellular level?

Greg: No, I use a concierge physician who does a lot of that, which we’re very, very fortunate. Most medical professionals have some just, they’re just not able to do that. But what specifically is a functional medicine practitioner? Is that an MD? How do you find one?

Dave: Yeah. So, all you have to do is Google ‘functional medicine near me.’ And you’re going to find practitioners in your marketplace. They aren’t all MDs. Some are DOs, some are chiropractors, and it really comes down to, they have a different set of protocols that they’re going to use on the front end to assess you. And it’s going to be, your care is going to be customized based on that set of protocols.

Greg: I think because, you know, I did one in my physician. She ran a test to tell me which foods I should and shouldn’t eat if I have an upset stomach. She gave me my green foods, my yellow foods and my red food. So red food meant would make, give me an upset stomach. I was blown away. And this is for me, yours will be totally different, but I was fascinated by it. My red food is a banana for my cellular makeup. If that’s the way to say it, I shouldn’t eat a banana. How many people would know that? Usually if you get an upset stomach,
they say, eat a banana. So that’s a type of thing you’re saying, it’s specific to you. And that’s an unusual test for someone to run.

Dave: Correct. Normally an MD under standard protocol isn’t giving guidance on tests like you described. You’re
going to find more recommendations along those lines from a functional medicine practice. So, we can segue right into that, Greg. Oh, and by the way, what you described was a, probably a food sensitivity test and that, that isn’t necessarily customized to your genes. That’s customized to how your gut flora, so to speak, your gut bacteria is functioning. Interestingly enough, since we’re sharing personal information, I was
a daily banana eater and banana came up as one of my red foods when I did — the tests that I like you to do first folks is Viome, V-I-O-M-E dot com. Go to that website. They’ve got a bunch of different tests. I’d want you to do your gut health test first because that’s going to go right in on — it’s not the most fun test to do because it’s a stool test. So you’re going to have to, you’re going to have to play with your poop, but you do a stool test and send it back to them and they’re able to take your sample and because of all the algorithms that these geniuses have written, they’re going to be able to tell you your red, yellow, and green foods, just like Greg was describing. That’s a great way to start because one of the questions everybody has is, what should I eat? What should I not eat? And you shouldn’t get that information from me. You should let your body tell you the answer to those questions.

Greg: So, you mentioned it’s V-I-O-M-E dot com. And I just, I think I know you’re going to give us a lot of other resources. This may be an opportunity for us to share how much ownership do you have in any of the businesses you’re about to recommend.

Dave: Yeah, I’m glad you brought that up too, folks. Why I strongly believe this time that you’re going to spend, we’re going to spend together is so valuable is because — I’ll tell you why I started doing this work. Part of
what my team does is put on conferences for our advisors, like the great advisors in Confluence. And I know many of them well, and, and we have these speakers that are, that climb Mount Everest, that are ultramarathoners,
that are great people. And they’re very inspirational, but our advisors came to us and said, you know, I can’t, I’m a normal person. I can’t relate. I’m not gonna climb Mount Everest or hike across Antarctica anytime soon, can you give us some material that we can relate to and really dig into? And so
that’s why, and that was part of what drove me, other than some personal things that I’ll touch on today. But I received zero, not one nickel from anything that I share with you today, I’m going to, I’m going to suggest, because I’ve done so many different assessments of all types. I’m going to tell you the ones I liked the best, and you can go check them out for yourselves, but know in advance, I’m not compensated in any form or fashion. I’ll even give you discount codes. They aren’t my discount codes, their discount codes from the people whose podcasts I listened to and who are friends of mine. But I get no benefit at all. So, I think I’m valuable to your clients, right? Because they’re getting absolutely unbiased advice. There’s nothing more you know, direct from the source that you’re going to receive than this information.

Greg: We talk to clients a lot about figuring out what you’re ‘all about’ is all about. And I love the fact that your ‘all about’ is just helping people improve. And that’s your passion. And so, we appreciate you being here. Let’s go back to, let’s go back to the immune system specifically, and let’s talk about, COVID like, you know, are there things that you can be doing that could help protect from COVID, but more generally diseases also?

Dave: Yeah. So gut health is, is going to be one or two, and sleep is one or two. And then diet. I mean, the things we’re going to talk about today, all boost your function at the cellular level, and what we’re talking about here, as I said, I’d stay general. I’ll get a little bit specific here in areas, mitochondrial function. So, so much of what I’ve learned and what I now practice boosts my cellular function at a mitochondrial level. So, the
stronger your, their, my, the mitochondria are the powerhouses of your cells. The better you sleep, the better your diet, the better your gut is functioning. And food is really, you know, food is such an important part of
gut health and gut health is an important part of sleep. So, having strong mitochondria, being strong at the cellular level, being healthy, truly healthy is going to make you, you know, much more immune to a virus, a
common cold a flu than if your immune system is compromised.

Greg:
Or if, or we know the mortality rate with COVID, right. If you have diabetes or you’re overweight, right? Your risks are much greater.

Dave:
Yeah. And what they’re finding, Greg, is everything starts, you mentioned diabetes, everything starts, they’re calling Alzheimer’s type three diabetes. Now, many of you have read this. That’s, what’s interesting about the audience I’m speaking to, some of you know this as well or better than I do. Some of you have never heard of this stuff. So, what do I mean by that? Let’s talk about sugar. Let’s talk about our diets. So, the two things I want you to focus on, those of you that are already diabetic, or pre-diabetic, you’re already looking at your blood sugar on a hopefully regular basis, a couple of times a year, at least, if you’re diabetic more often than
that. And then, in addition to your blood sugar there, the other ratio that you just don’t hear about, that’s really important is your omega six to omega three ratio. And you hear about omega threes. You hear about taking fish oil and the challenge there is finding the right product, in my opinion, and I’ll share one in the notes that I share with Greg and team here when we’re done,
but what’s happened is our diets are too much processed food. There is — and processed food is designed to live longer on a shelf. And it’s the omega sixes that are in processed food that make it last long. And that used to be more trans fats, hydrogenated oils. And, you know, the government’s figured that out and they’ve almost gone away, but what they’ve replaced the trans fats with our seed oils. So pretty much any product you pick up off the shelf, folks, you’re going to see the following: canola oil, sunflower oil, safflower oil, and while those oils can be okay in moderation, unfortunately now we’re getting bombarded with omega sixes and real quick, as I wrap this up, Greg, our ancestors, the cave men and women they’re omega six to omega
three ratio was one-to-one. It was literally equal. The average American today is about 25 to one omega six to omega three, because of our atrocious diets. I’m proud to say my ratio is four to one, omega six to three. So, I’m because of all the changes I’ve made in my diet I’ve made a lot of progress there, but that ha— so that’s something that helps you function at a higher cellular level. And then the sugar piece. You know, one of our nutrition speakers
shows a slide of actual sugar cane, a sugar cane farm in South America. And you see these big stalks of a very rigid plant. You know, if you, Greg, if you wanted to go and chew on the husk of a sugar cane, it’s going to be healthy. That’s a healthy way to consume sugar. Unfortunately, as everyone knows, the white process product that too many people eat too much of, our body, wasn’t designed to process that. So that’s partly why, that coupled with another here’s another macro I want to throw at everybody. It’s called, the concept is called hormesis. Okay. And my exercise people and people that like to drink. Hormesis is what doesn’t kill us, makes us stronger. Okay. So, we know we can drink. If we’re bad, we can drink a fifth of alcohol, right? But a little bit of alcohol is good for us. A little bit of exposure to extremely cold temperatures is good for us. A sauna, a little bit of extremely high temperatures are good for us. The problem is, why am I talking about this? The problem is Greg, we were not designed as human beings to live 24/7, 365 at 72
degrees. We are pampering ourselves too much. Okay. And that’s why we are developing—

Greg: Wait, what do you mean by that? We’re pampering ourselves?

Dave: We’re constantly controlling our environment in a way that is dumbing down our bodies and dumbing down, our ability to perform, because of that our resilience is dumbed down. It’s no different than any other form of muscle fatigue. We have cellular fatigue because we don’t stress our bodies appropriately and frequently enough.

Greg: So, it feels then, like in the last year with everybody wearing it, and we’re not having an opinion on masks or anything like that, but with really fewer germs and masks and that— are you suggesting that long term there could be a danger to that.

Dave: Well, it will. They’ve already said flu has gone down. The reason flu has gone down is because we’re not transmitting as much. The reason we’re not transmitting as much as cause we’re, we’re ameliorating with the mask. So, I’m very supportive of that. And here’s why, because, folks, everything I just described is where we are as a race, as humans. We’re all trying to be comfortable all the time because of that, our immune systems are compromised. Because of that, so many of us are susceptible to COVID. My suggestion
would be, and this will never happen because it’s — now I am going to — don’t — I’m not going to get, I’m not going to get, I’m not going to get party specific. This is, forget Republican, Democrat, Independent, it doesn’t matter. We are babying ourselves folks. We’re babying everybody. Everything’s free. Everything’s this, that. Now I’m here to help you. My, Greg mentioned, my mission in life, I’ll tell you my personal value proposition is to help people go to places and accomplish things that they wouldn’t have accomplished, absent our engaging together. And so, I get my juice out of life, helping people like you that are listening, try something new and make an improvement, make an impact. Okay? That being said, if we are not challenging ourselves, if we are literal couch potatoes, cavemen didn’t have air conditioning, folks, cavemen didn’t have heaters. And they aren’t
our too far distant ancestors. And because of that, the body wasn’t made to be constantly comfortable. If the body’s not challenged, much like a muscle it atrophies. And that’s where these inflammatory diseases, because that’s what we’re taught. When we’re talking about heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer’s diabetes, bad is cellular information. That is the driver and the precursor of those afflictions.

Greg: We were talking about diet. So, as you were saying that, by the way I was Googling, I wanted to Google ‘new diets’ and here’s the confusion, right? So, people are like, okay, I’m in, I’m going to go figure out what to,
and not to eat. When you Google like new diets, smoothie diet, best diets of 2021…

Dave: Keto, you’re going to see keto in there.

Greg: And so, you know, and then it’s like omega three, omega sex, like — dumb it down for us.

Dave: Okay. Start by assessing. Everyone’s different. Remember I told you, I’m not gonna, I’ll tell you what Dave does, but you’ve got to figure out what you need to do. So do a Viome test or another, that’s a gut health test, do a food sensitivity test. And I’ll share with you some of the ones that I’ve done there, Greg, that I like. Do a DNA test. I’ll share with you the two DNA companies I like best are actually out of Toronto. Now we’re getting into more, you know, that’s a more expensive, that’s going to cost you a few hundred dollars. But I think the listeners in this call are willing to invest in their health on a long-term basis. So, what you’re going to learn from that is—so I know I’m jumping around.

Greg: No but, so the output of that is a normal person with normal knowledge will have information that they can act on?

Dave: Yes. Because the companies I recommend, there’s a consult that a physician will do with you that will interpret the report and the data for you. Very great question. Very important, because left to your own devices, folks, you’re only going to get so far. So, let me give you some examples. Okay. This is about, it’s not about you. I don’t have the gene that converts sunlight into vitamin D. I don’t have the gene that converts beta carotene into vitamin A. So, I can eat all the carrots I want folks, I don’t get, I get fiber from them, but I don’t get vitamin A from them.

Greg: You should have stayed in Pittsburgh, my friend, we don’t get sunlight so—

Dave: Yeah, yeah, I know. I’m wasting all this great sunlight down here. But see, I wouldn’t know that. Now the normal blood test didn’t show me as vitamin D deficient. When I did further, this further SpectraCell laboratories food sensitivity tests, that’s what told me that I was vitamin D deficient, by the way, that test, SpectraCell lab laboratory tests also will give you a, a measurement for your immune system health. And I have, I have a stronger immune system than a 20-year old. That’s, all this stuff, all this biohacking that I do. So, I know we’re rambling, Greg, but that’s why I think the solution part of the solution— I’m going to be clear: part of the solution is not just masking to protect yourself from COVID and other viruses. It’s boosting your immune health. Okay? Because it, my immune system strength, I’m going to process this virus a whole lot differently than somebody. And we all know, we know it’s overweight folks, it’s diabetics, it’s people with heart disease, it’s people, cancer, it’s people with other inflammatory conditions that have compromised their immune system that are most susceptible to COVID.

Greg: Okay, good to know. So cellular performance, get tested. You can biohack and it’s gonna, it’s going to increase your immune system and seek out a functional medical practitioner.

Dave: Yeah, now the diet—

Greg: And diet. And you’re done.

Dave: And back to diet, a couple of simple macros: eat whole foods, eat — not at Whole Foods — eat whole foods. Now here’s the thing about COVID since a lot of us are staying home, if you remember the beginning of COVID, one of the real huge benefits of the beginning of COVID was they were giving away raw fruits, vegetables, live food, because they had too much of it. That would have been a perfect time for people to start to develop these habits. So, eat whole foods. If you’re going to eat a bread, make it something like a
sprouted grain bread. There’s my market. I go to a sprouts market. I buy a sourdough bread that has three ingredients. So that’s another, I mentioned those oils earlier. I want those, omega sixes I want you to stay away from. If you eat a whole foods, a bread isn’t a whole food. It’s processed because the grains are processed, but at least eat a bread that has as few as ingredients as possible or make it at home. Okay. But otherwise, try to eat whole foods.
Meats, real quick, Greg, I’m just giving you the best of the best, everybody. I want my peeps from Pittsburgh to have the best. I do not buy chicken. If you want to read a great book, read a book called The Dorito Factor. You’ll learn more about chicken than you ever wanted to. Bottom line: even the organic chicken at the grocery store is not the best chicken. And the best chicken are pasture chickens, the best eggs, by the way, in your grocery store, I’ve been to Pittsburgh. I’ve seen them. You have ‘em there.

Greg: Oh no, wait a minute. So I was in, so I go to the grocery store, like maybe not often, I’ll leave it at that. And I’d walked by the egg counter and I just stood there 33 different types of eggs. And I’m like, when the hell did
this happen, we had 33 eggs. And then we hired a nutritionist, Lori and I hired a nutritionist. She was fabulous. But so, she had very, so she also said on the meat, is it grass-fed that is better?

Dave: Yes. Grass-fed, grass-finished. It’s all about what your animal consumes that makes up their bod composition, folks. And it’s also their environment. So, a free range cow is a happy cow and they’re a grass eating cow. So, look for grass-fed, grass-finished in your meats.

Greg: I grew up in Johnstown though, I got to tell you like the typical person listening to this, you know, the kid from Johnstown and he’s going like, okay, this is crazy! Like, we’re like, but you’re saying it isn’t a fad. It isn’t, this is real.

Dave: Greg, Greg, I did this when I was home in Pittsburgh, and I stayed with my sister up in Cranberry and her husband and their family. And I bought, I had my own food shipped in from Whole Foods not to be condescending. I, I didn’t want to eat their food, you know, I want to provide for myself. Well, the eggs I wastelling you about they’re called Vital Farms. And on your carton
of Vital Farms eggs, you can go on Vital Farms website and see the chickens that you’re eating the eggs from. They’re out and about foraging and
eating a traditional chicken diet. They’re not in coops. What is, what is the definition, Greg, of free range? So, you see free range, that was what I used to buy. Free. Right? Free range. Sounds great. Doesn’t it? Free Range sounds like the chickens are free in the range. You want to know what to— go Google it, folks. Okay. Literally there isn’t really a standard. And the minimum standard in the industry has become the door of the chicken coop has to be open for five minutes a day. Okay.

Greg: So, it feels like so many things in our society. And I don’t want to get political with it. We’re being, we are, we are like on food, we’re being duped. And I’m telling you, we hired this nutritionist and at Confluence, we
should get a nutritionist for our clients. It’s something that we’re going to try to think about and work on over the next year. But it is so important, if we help people with their wealth, but their health isn’t okay, we haven’t
helped enough.

Dave: Exactly.

Greg: So, and I can tell you, when we hired our nutritionist, for anyone listening, if they’re saying, is this real? We did it with our nutritionist. We got in better shape. We felt better. And we, and my wife and I, we’re getting back at it because we did get off the wagon for a little bit. And you just feel, you just have more energy. You were saying for, your body’s a machine. How you just, you burn calories. It’s

Dave: I fixed my gut. Yeah. I, folks. I’m 5’11. My, by the way, one of the DNA tests I took, I don’t want to diss it. It’s just not going to give you what the higher end ones will give you. I did 23 and Me. I’m 90% Italian ancestry, it says I’m supposed to weigh 210 pounds. Okay. Folks, I weigh 148 pounds. So, I have defied my DNA by all of the hacking that I do. I’m not starving folks. I eat everything I want. What happens when you work on your gut over time is your taste preferences change. And you really like whole foods. A couple of things, I want to button up the Vital Farms Eggs. Here’s, if you don’t believe me folks, this is what happened at my sister’s house. So, we’re up in Cranberry. I say, pull your eggs out, make yourself an egg. I’m going to crack my egg in the skillet. I’ll bet you 10 bucks my yoke is more orange than yours. And they were like, they didn’t want to bet me because they knew I’d win. And I cracked the egg. Well, guess what, they are. They now buy Vital Farms Eggs. It’s all these little things, everything that goes in your body folks, I believe you should try and find the very best, closest to the source, natural product possible, with the least ingredients possible. That should be your mission with everything that goes in your mouth. Now, Nancy and I
just spent Valentine’s weekend. So, everybody knows, I live a normal life. Nancy and I, Nancy is my wife. We just spent the weekend in Charleston, South Carolina. Any of you all know, Charleston, South Carolina, it is restaurant Mecca. We went out three straight nights. I, whatever the heck I wanted, I just eat good food. So, I ate a lamb burger, okay, versus eating the grade-A, you know, mass-produced meat burger. It’s those types of nuance decisions that I made. But I put Heinz ketchup on that burger folks. And some Heinz mustard, and some Heinz mayonnaise—

Greg: Did you eat the bread?

Dave: I ate some of the bread. I don’t eat a lot of the bread and I would never, I would never eat a traditional hamburger bun on a regular basis. But do I, you know, did we have dessert? Did we have, it ends on the last
night? Did I have a piece of pecan pie? Yes. So, don’t think, here’s the beauty. This is what I want to inspire you by, once you gut gets going. Remember when you were a kid, and I was up at IUP eating pizza, 10 every
night and my gut could handle it. But over time I destroyed my gut and that’s why I had to work my way back. Folks. I don’t gain. I can go do that for three, four, five. We go, we’ll go skiing out west during the spring here
in a few weeks, I’ll drink beer and, and almost every night. And I’m okay because I don’t, my gut flora is functioning again at a high level.

Greg: So how long does it take to get your gut flora functioning at a high level?

Dave: It depends. It depends on what you do, Greg. It depends on how disciplined you are to putting the right food, figuring out, figuring out, doing the assessments. Number one, everybody’s different. So, you all start to
figure out what’s best and worst for you. And then, you know, the answer, Greg is, just like financial planning, if you’re disciplined to the right approach, you’re going to have the results sooner. If you’re not, if you’re back and forth, it’s going to take you longer. By the way, we completely, a lot of you know this, or have heard this. We completely replace our entire body at this cellular level every seven years. So, at the very least, if those of you stay disciplined, you will be a completely different operating mechanism in seven years. And you know, gradually along the way.

Greg: Yeah. So, when we had our nutritionist, it was a three-month thing. And so, what the first month was a lot of education, second month, you know, we didn’t, we ate by the book a hundred percent of the time. And then after that, you know, if you ate 85% of the time, if you eat, what’s good for your gut. We had a lot of results. We’re going back to it. And I’m going to tell you, for anybody listening, it sounds complicated, but it’s not, it’s not. Once you, right, once you start learning how to make good decisions—

Dave: Eat whole foods, folks, eat whole foods and eat the best quality produce. Hopefully we’re going to get it. Buy European when you can. I hate to say that, I’m American. I love America. Oh, by the way, here’s a wine hack
for you. For those of you that like red wine, everybody get their notepad out. The three countries that still produce wine to the old world standard are New Zealand, France and Italy. And I know we like to poke fun at the French. They aren’t the best allies at times, but folks, trust me. If you drink wine from those three countries, for instance, my wife is not a big red wine drinker. And I said, try a bottle of valpolicella an Italian bottle, one of these nights, this past weekend. And she said, it always gives me a headache, no headache. Also, there’s another product called Drop It that you can get on Amazon. And especially if you’re going to drink an American wine, I love Napa cabs, but they can have a lot of tannins, right. But a couple of drops of
drop it in your wine, your red wine, especially if you’re going to have more than two glasses. And the next day you will notice a dramatic decrease in your headache. So, there’s a hack that all you wine drinkers will say, gosh, I’m glad I listened to that podcast. That’s awesome.

Greg: Okay. But wait a minute. So, this was a good transition wine. With wine, we’re going to get into sleep. My understanding is, when you drink wine in the evening, it does a great job of putting you to sleep. But then at
about two in the morning, the sugar kicks in and that’s why you go to sleep okay. But you tend to wake up a couple hours later when the sugar kicks in, true.

Dave: You probably can anticipate what I’m saying. It depends on how much you drank. It depends on what kind you drank. It depends on when you drank. It depends on what you consumed it with. Here’s the bottom line: you’ve got to measure your sleep. Great transition, Greg. I was plenty, a perfect time to get into — how many of you can tell me, last night, I can pull up my data and tell you exactly how many minutes of deep sleep, REM sleep and regular sleep I got. Exactly when I went to sleep, fell asleep. Exactly when I woke up.
Exactly when I woke up to take those breaks. You’re talking about — I take typically one, sometimes two a pretty much dependent on how much I drank or if I drank. But you folks you have, so let’s move into sleep. Number one, measure your sleep. Now, if you could see, that’s not my wedding ring, this is my wedding ring. On my left hand, zoom does an exact replication. So, it looks like my right hand. This is called an aura ring. So, there are two devices that I recommend. Once again, no compensation. It’s spelled O-U-R-A, the Oura
ring or the Whoop, W-H-O-O-P band. I think it’s two O’s. I don’t own that, but I know they are the only two devices today that include heart rate variability in what they measure, and heart rate variability is the most cutting edge measurement device barometer. If you will, of how you are, health-wise at a cellular level. So, it’s not that you can’t use the Apple Watch. It’s not that you can’t use, you know, I used to have a Fitbit Charge. They will give you some sleep data. I’m okay if you start there, but here’s what I want you to do. I want you to start to track how much deep and REM sleep you get.

Greg: Dave, I have to tell you, I heard you. You gave me this recommendation. I don’t know, year or two ago. And I went and bought one of the rings and I only wear it, I only wear it at night. It’s fabulous. Like, like when I
wake up in the morning, I immediately look at how much deep sleep, I think last night I was at 39%. So, I, 39% of my goal, I guess it was. So, I look at, I look at, I mean, in that bar chart at the bottom, I look at it, I look at it every morning. Can’t recommend that enough.

Dave: Was your, are you saying your sleep score was 39 last night?

Greg: Well, I’m going to pull it up. I’m saying, hold on. I’m going to pull it up.

Dave: All right. Let’s compare. We’re going to have contest. Here we go.

Greg: No, I lose. I lose. I lose. My no, no, no. Wait a minute. I got there. There’s everybody’s different. First of all, Mr. Patchen, first of all, everyone’s different. Second of all, my daughter, I was seven hours and 40 minutes.

Dave: Okay. That’s good.

Greg: My time was in bed was 824. It’s pathetic. My time, my total, yeah, my efficiency was 91. That’s good. My restfulness was good. My REM sleep was two hours and 18 minutes.

Dave: That’s very good.

Greg: My deep sleep was bad. That’s the one. It was only 32 minutes.

Dave: And that’s the one I have challenged with.

Greg: Me too!

Dave: Yeah. So last night, I was at eight hours, 34, total, 228 REM, 121 deep. So last night was a very good night. I can have nights where I don’t do as well on deep. Alcohol. Really folks, is why you got to start to measure
sleep. One of the things is it’s hard when you love, and I love red wine. So, it’s, it’s hard to not— Or if youlike a martini or, you know, I like a bourbon
here and there, but it’s easier to stop that or to lessen it, mitigate
it. If you start to see if you’re measuring something, you’re just have more of a drive to try and take actions. So—

Greg: But in addition to all that, isn’t it important also to have the same—

Dave: Yeah. The circadian rhythm.

Greg: Yeah. So, like, I go to, I mean, last night I went to bed at 8:58 sort of pathetic. But I go to bed by nine, most nights, I got up at 522. So, I, but I’m within that. I mean that tonight I’ll go to bed at nine plus or minus five
minutes and I’ll get up around the same time. And there’s something to that, correct?

Dave: It’s huge. Yes. Very much so. So, so let’s get into my favorite sleep packs. First off, same time and the brain will help you with that. The ring, my ring tells me my ideal bedtime is between 8:45 and 9:45 PM. And it will
track that on an ongoing basis. So, it tells you when to go to bed, dark room, cold room. Now here’s the thing.

Greg: And when you say dark, you mean dark.

Dave: I mean, no light whatsoever. If you’ve got to wear that, one of those masks around your eyes, wear it. If you do that, you’ll see you actually get more deep sleep. So, let me just ramble through these and people can rewind it and listen again. So dark room, cold room. Now the cold room’s really important. The ideal sleep temperatures, 65 to 67 degrees in Florida. We can’t crank the AC down to 65 in the summer. It’s 90 degrees down here sometimes in the summer. So that doesn’t work. So, there’s a product I highly recommended. It’s funny. My wife didn’t want to get this product, but now all of her tennis friends, all of her girlfriends now own this product called a ChiliPad. ChiliPad has another product called the OOLER. And what these products do is, each of you, husband and wife, will have a pod. We have a king-sized bed and my pod is set to 64 degrees. Nancy says, actually, she’s has it set to 62? Cause she wears pajamas at night. I don’t. And it circulates cold water under you. It’s like a mattress pad that you sleep on, but it circulates cold water. Now you’ll see folks. My deep sleep went up 20% on a 90-day comparative side-by-side basis after I got the ChiliPad. So worth looking into once again, I don’t get, I don’t, I don’t get any money for you buying it. I’m just telling you if you, especially women that are going through the, you know, we’re mid-fifties, Nancy and I are 56 and she was going through the life change. The last couple of years, it’s been a game changer for her sleep. As we measure of sleep. So, dark room, cold room, another one, really important for REM sleep, folks, is blue light. You got to get the blue light out of your life. And blue light comes from the screens that we look at and they’re beautiful screens, your iPad, your iPhone, your smartphone, your TV. Most of these devices either have blue light minimizing built-in tools that you can adjust. Like people look at my phone, they say, it always looks pink. People say, do you want your phone to look like that? I do. I want to block blue light all the time. The resources I’m going to share. I have a pair of amber shades that I put on my glasses at night when I watch television that tells my body, it eliminates the blue light. The blue light comes from fluorescent lights as well. Almost all the lighting we have, LED lighting, which is the rage in some of the new homes some of you just built, is terrible for your circadian rhythm. So, after the sun goes down, and that’s later in the summer, I get that. That can be nine o’clock in the summer. But during the wintertime, after five, six o’clock when you start to want to relax, folks, I want you putting some form of blue light blocking in place. What that’s going to do, Greg, is allow you to get more deep sleep. And here’s, what’s important about deep and REM sleep folks: you get deep sleep the first couple of hours you’re in bed. And these are by the way, these aren’t just for Dave, they’re for these are general rules about sleep that apply to 90-some percent of the population. But when you start to measure your sleep, you’re going to see your deep sleep early and your REM sleep late. So. Greg, one comment, if I may, on what you said about your sleep. Nine to five is okay. Especially if you’re falling asleep, when you go to bed at nine, I can live with that. Okay. What, here’s what happens though, with a lot of people, and by the way we said, we were going to share some personal thing. I lost my mom to Alzheimer’s in September of 2018. And she would fall into this category where you wake up at 4 or 2:30 or 3 in the morning and you never go back to sleep. Here’s what happens. And I wish you guys could see my screen. You’ll see. I wake up. Sometimes I’m actually awake, so are many of you, for an hour, hour and a half, in the middle of the night. I’ve trained myself to meditate. I’ve trained myself to turn my mind off and I
go back to sleep. Here’s what happens when you go back to sleep, you get almost pure REM sleep. Those last, that last hour or two. So, Greg, if you pick a day that you go, you go back to sleep or sleep a little later, you’re going to see that it’s almost entirely REM sleep. I’m going to see if I can look at last night and look at the big, you see the white, that’s when I was awake. But look what happened at the very end of the night. You see that solid light blue line for an hour. I told you I got two hours and 21 minutes of REM sleep. An hour of that was the last hour that I helped myself go back to sleep. So, point, bottom line, do not get up in the middle of the night and
play with your smartphones, folks. Turn on the TV, teach yourself breathing techniques, which has stuff— if the people like this call this is the podcast Greg, and they want me to come back, and they have stuff they
want me to cover it’s, I’m happy to go deeper on any of these topics on how to—

Greg: Yeah. So, I appreciate you saying that. So, if people are interested, we’re going to go over some more stuff, but if people are interested, you know, we’d love to give Dave a reason to come back and visit his family. So,
we would be happy to do, you know, a meeting in Pittsburgh where we share some more information—.

Dave: Yeah or do a live event.

Greg: We can do some more Q and— yeah, live event where we do more Q&A.

Dave: Yeah, exactly. We’d love to do that. Great excuse to come home.

Greg: Yep. This isn’t just about how I want to feel rested. The next day sleep is really important, right? I mean, you know, you, and I’ve talked about this
before some of the benefits of sleep, you mentioned them all with Alzheimer’s, you know, just, you want to talk about that a little bit?

Dave: Yeah. It’s, it’s everything. Sleep and especially deep sleep REMs, really important. REM’s really strong for brain health and cognitive function. And then deep sleep is really helpful for a, from a muscular recovery standpoint, if you work out, it’s really important, but also testosterone and hormone balancing, that’s what is really important about deep sleep. And what happens is people are taking a lot of drugs. I’m not going to have time to get into things like statins. And that’s why I’m not a doctor. You have to take your statins. If you’ve got a blood pressure issues and cholesterol issues, I get that. But those drugs impact your sleep and specifically your deep sleep, why your testosterone goes down and becomes a vicious cycle. So, try some of
these things. I have a magnesium product that I like. Magnesium is the sleep mineral. It’s worth trying. That’ll also help you get a deep, into deep sleep as well. But yes, it turns out that breathing is the first thing that if
it’s stopped you die, but actually sleep will lack of sleep will kill you before even lack of water will kill you. That’s how important not only sleeping is, but the quality of your sleep is. So, the more you can learn about it through measurement, the better you’re going to be able to start to have it.

Greg: Thank you. So, so measure it. And there’s some things you can do to improve it, but you don’t know if you’re going to be improving it until you know where you’re starting. So and I’ll tell you at first, you know, when you
first get the ring and you start, it’s frustrating because, you know, you just, you just realize when I look at it, it was frustrating, realized I didn’t have much REM. I didn’t have much deep sleep. I was up, I saw, I saw Dave knows what I mean, but there’s a bunch of white on my phone in the morning. But if you don’t know where you are, it’s hard to improve. So, speaking of sleep and here’s another transition, a group of us in Pittsburgh
have been working of getting together on mental health. Mental health is an epidemic. I think COVID clearly has brought it to the forefront and has potentially, you know, even made a difficult situation, more difficult.
So, a group of us were at Western Psych in Pittsburgh and we were talking to them and we said, okay, so, you know, what are some of the things we can be doing? And, and I’ll never forget the physician looked and said, you know, one of the things we’re realizing how important sleep is to mental health and I’m like sleep, we’re talking about sleep. So, but there’s a lot of other advancements that have happened. In fact, one of the physicians at Western Psych at Pitt said to me, one of the challenge, one of the challenges is there’s there’s new treatments, but they’re not, he was so frustrated, that the treatments are not getting to the patient. It’s just not getting there. So, do you want to talk about mental health in general and some of the advancements that have happened?

Dave: Yeah. So happy to. And happy to and sad to. And I’ll start off by you know, sharing the, the tough thing, the elephant in the room, as it relates to mental health. Everybody out there and I, I want to make sure I don’t get
emotional here. Nancy and I lost our 21-year-old son, Ben to suicide October 5th of 2019. So, this is a topic that when you go through that, is near and dear to your heart. And Ben’s one case. We have, as Greg said, unfortunately, hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of people suffering now. COVID’s exasperated some of that. The things I’m talking about, folks, gut health and sleep, diet, alcohol — are all big drivers. Ben was a hockey player. There were concussions involved. He was never a good sleeper. So, his brain
wasn’t repairing, you know, nicotine was involved. He was smoking marijuana. I mean, these kids today, folks. And then the other one, what did I say earlier?
These kids — and some of you adults, you’re on your phones all the time! Here’s the thing, Greg. I was thinking about this in anticipation of our time. What if you decided you were going to develop a product for all of humanity that basically would ruin their posture, ruined their neck, ruin their shoulders, ruined their hands, ruined their eyes, impact their sleep, and you’d charge them a hundred bucks a month to subscribe. How many of those you think he could sell? Well, folks, that’s a smartphone! You want to talk about a pandemic. That’s a pandemic, and young people, one of the times our son moved out of the house was me waking up, I told you I wake up in the middle of the night, at three in the morning and coming back to our media room and
seeing him gaming at three in the morning. Okay. All of these things contribute to brain health. And what happens with mental health is the brain is not functioning properly. And so, what I would share — if I knew, then what I know today, I love, there’s a book called ‘The End of Mental Illness’ by Daniel Amen, A-M-E-N. He, in my opinion, this is Dave’s opinion, so
check it out. If you have a loved one that’s suffering and they haven’t had a SPECT scan by a Amen-trained physician, I would highly recommend that be part of your protocol for diagnosing and suggesting treatments. The other thing I would ask your mental health practitioner, if you are down the road on this, with loved ones that I was not able to do, but I would do today is, they’re making, I know it’s going to sound crazy for some of you that haven’t read about this, but many of you have, they’re making great inroads with psychedelic drugs and mental illness. It’s hard to say mental illness once you read Daniel Amen’s book, by the way, because he, he makes it clear
that that is, it’s a slanderous description of the affliction. And what I mean by that, what he means by that is, you know, if you have a problem with an organ, they go in and they look at the organ, they do an MRI. They do a, you know, they do an x-ray. They they’re always checking it. And then trying to treat that organ with mental health, what you’re going to learn, the more you dig into it is the protocols for diagnosis haven’t really changed in the history of the study of mental health. And so, getting a look at the brain and trying to figure out exactly what’s wrong based on what’s going on with the blood flow in the brain, goes a long way toward knowing how to treat it. But back to the psychedelics, low-dose LSD, there’s a drug called ketamine that
they’re having great results with. What’s another one that— MDMA so know that there are a lot of alternative treatments and what they’re able to do, so many times trauma is behind, and there was some traumatic, unfortunately experiences in my son’s life when he was a little boy. And that stuff that he couldn’t shake even through multiple therapists. And what trained, I want to be very clear, what highly trained therapists and doctors with the psychedelics are starting to represent they can do — you see me measuring my words — is that they can help almost erase some of the, some of the past events in the person’s mind that are causing that PTSD, if you will. So
please check this stuff out. Folks, your loved one is still alive. Mine’s not. I’m just sharing with you from my
heart. What I know is showing progress and promise today. And I would just highly encourage you to check it
out.

Greg: Dave, I’m truly sorry for your loss. I know everybody feels it when you said it on the phone, our heart went out to you and sorry for your loss. I will tell you, you are a, you’re an inspiration seeing the passion that you have to try to change the end of other people’s story. And hearing you tell the story. I can just, I mean, you and I can see each other. People can hear it in your voice, how you really are working to bend the curve on mental
health. And I agree with you, it’s a, there’s, there’s a stigma involved. You know, people say like that you commit suicide. No, you didn’t commit, right. It’s a health issue. And you know, they call it behavioral health. And I heard you say, it’s, it’s why not, why don’t we call it mental wellness? We are blessed in Pittsburgh to have wonderful resources. It’s a little bit fragmented and it’s hard to it’s hard to know where everything is, the group that we’re working with. One of the, one of the things we thought
about creating (and we’ll see if we get it done, we’re trying to figure out, you know, what’s the biggest impact we can make) is an app where if, you know, if you have a loved one, that’s going through an acute moment, it’s actually hard to know where to go. The resources are there, you just, they’re just not organized. And so, in Pittsburgh, one of the things we’re thinking about is an app. But the good news is, there is help on the way, and with people like you, with education, and you know, a lot of the research that’s being done,
someone that is suffering a mental health illness today, you don’t have to live with this forever. They don’t say that about any other illness. It’s incredible to me that, you know, there’s always hope that there’s a cure
or a treatment that can make things better. And they’re coming.

Dave: No, and unfortunately the drugs that they do prescribe, you know, that, that certainly seemed, seemed to, in fact, there might be a practitioner listening to it. Hey I’m just telling you what happened that that probably, it
looks like it exacerbated his specific case and situation. So that that’s, some of the best concussion work in the world is done out of Pittsburgh. You guys have really great resources there around brain health as a whole. So, tap into them, ask the questions. What are you doing with psychedelic drugs? They will know, trust me. They’re not going to look at you sideways. They’re going to be able to, hopefully they’re going to say, I’m glad you, I’m glad you brought that up. Here’s where we are in our approach with those types of
drugs. Okay. And same with the SPECT scan. I’m sure your concussion labs already have a tool like that, but it should be used for cases beyond
concussion, and stay close to the people. You know, it was so, every situation is unique and different. And you know, our son — it is an illness. They do get sick and they’re not their brain isn’t working. And they’re not thinking rationally and logically. And so, you can’t listen to them is the last thing I’d share with everybody. You gotta, sometimes with your kid, you just got to trust your own gut, and you gotta, you gotta do what you gotta do. And we were scheduled to go out there the weekend before it happened. And the therapist told us to stay away. And, but the reason, I don’t want to pick on therapists, folks. The reason the therapist told us to stay away was because Ben was saying that I was going to kill him. And, you know, that therapists have to protect their patients. We should have just gone. Okay. We should have just gone. And I share that with you, because maybe you or someone, you know, is struggling with this, and you have an instinct. Go give it a shot. Don’t think that we’re overly second guessing. There’s reasons we didn’t go. We listened to the therapist, but I have an opportunity through my pedestal here as, as a public speaker for Raymond James to share my experiences and hope somehow, some way they can help you. And say a prayer, say a prayer for my son, please. It does, it does mean a lot to me. It means a lot to us. And I’m praying for your loved ones that are suffering through this. Thank you. Sorry, Greg. I’m okay.

Greg: Thank you so much. And we certainly will say a prayer for your loss and just thank you. You make a difference in other people’s lives and we just really appreciate it. And, you know, when you first introduce things like, you know, the immune system and sleep and diet and mental health, they sound like bullet points, but they’re bigger than that. They’re literally things that’ll change people’s lives and they’ll change outcomes and they’ll change the happiness in our lives. And I can tell you I’ve had a lot of podcasts and
conversations, but when I speak with you, it’s moving, and I just can’t thank you enough for the difference you make in people’s lives. And our prayers are promised. So, we appreciate—

Dave: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. And what you’re talking about, as we wrap up is, what’s now referred to as ‘health span.’ Everybody knows. I hear some of you on the call saying, I don’t want to live to be fill-in-the-blank, a hundred, 120. It’s not the point. I know what everyone wants. What everyone wants is to have as many years where we feel great as possible. And that’s what we talked about today is going to help you. You work on your sleep, you work on your gut, you work on your diet and you help those connect those with resources from a mental health standpoint, you’re going to feel better. And you’re going to have a longer health span, which is really at the end of the day all any of us can ask for. So, hope everybody got something
out of this. I’ll share some resources with Greg and team that he can share and anything that you have interested, interest as Greg said, in me doing this again, we’ll talk about an opportunity to try and do that. I’d love to do it in person.

Greg: Dave, we appreciate you. You’re a game changer. God bless.

Dave: Thanks, Greg. Same to you.

Greg: Thanks for listening. If you’d like to hear other subject matters that may be of interest to you. Please check us out at ConfluenceFP.com/podcasts.“Imagine That” Confluence Financial Partners.

Confluence Financial Partners — A New Model for Private Schools | Episode #12

The value of a strong educational foundation cannot be overestimated. For parents looking to provide for their children’s future, there can be no better investment. Join host and Partner of Confluence Financial Partners, Greg Weimer, as he interviews Gloria Hudock, Father Mike Caridi, and Harmony Stewart — three board members of South Hills Catholic Academy, a new option for Catholic education in the Pittsburgh region. You’ll learn about the accessibility of a private education and how SHCA is filling the opportunity gap in Pittsburgh.

For anyone interested in educational alternatives — or the amazing things that can be accomplished with the right planning — this is an episode you need to hear.

Greg: Catholic schools provide over $24 billion a year in savings for the nation. Imagine that.

(SOURCE: National Catholic Educational Association, 2020)

Greg: This is Greg Weimer from Confluence Financial Partners. Welcome to our podcast. Looking forward to today’s discussion. We’re going to develop three different thoughts. We’re going to talk about the current state of education. We’re going to talk about the real need in lower income communities and the opportunity gap. That would be two. And then three, we’re going to talk about a unique solution that’s coming to the forefront in Pittsburgh, in South Hills Catholic Academy. So they’re the three things we’re going to develop and talk about today. And we’re very fortunate to have with us three guests, and rather than do like a formal introduction thing, I think it’s interesting, because I know all of you a little differently, but I’ve known all of you, you know, different amounts of time also. So, we’ll start with Father Mike Caridi. You and I met, father, when then you were the pastor at St. Louise and then went to St. Anne. And then now it’s what, St. Paul of the Cross, right? Which is St. Anne and St. Winifred’s . So, I always thought highly of you at St. Louise and thought you did great stuff there. So I’m looking forward to you participating in the conversation. And then Gloria Hudock — how do you introduce Gloria? I mean, you experience Gloria! So Gloria makes stuff happen, but her roots and her passion are in education. So Gloria is the one that really got me involved in thinking about education differently. And so Gloria and I and our families have been friends for a long time. And she has a background in education and has been a real force with starting this new school and then Harmony Stewart, I knew of you before I knew you. And you’ve made, I don’t know that I ever told you— So our daughter, Elizabeth, our oldest daughter, she came to St. Anne’s twice to observe, student teach, shadow, whatever the kids do from Duquesne. And I remember her saying, you can’t believe what the principal and Father Mike are doing down there. It’s incredible. And she was all fired up about this experience she had at St. Anne. So then when we met, I said, Oh, we’re starting this new school. It’s really cool. The principal is going to be, and it was like, she’s a rock star! So yeah, so I knew of you. So now Harmony is very involved in school and is going to be, is going to be the principal of the school. So we’re looking forward to that, but let’s back up because it’s a bigger issue than that, right? What we really want to do is talk about education. We can all talk about the future and where the opportunities are, but, you know, at the end of the day, it comes down to education. And so, you three have great experience in education. So, I would just be curious to hear from you, let’s level set. And I think we all agree that there’s great things about education going on right now. I have two teachers as children. I think teachers are heroes, the amount of energy they’re having to display to teach people right now, to teach children, is truly remarkable. So, teachers are great, and a lot of good things are happening, but to be fair, it’s not all perfect. So, let’s all talk about, if you guys could give me your view of the current state of education, what are the, what are the challenges right now in education?

Fr. Mike: Well, I, I would say overall, maybe a foundational or philosophical challenge facing education today, at least from our point of view, being a religious institution, a Christian, a Catholic school would be the fact that our understanding of knowledge, our understanding of truth is based in God. That all knowledge, all truth comes from God and leads somebody back to God. And so, in a Catholic school such as the one that we’re in the process of forming, there is an intentional effort in everyday life, in every aspect of school life to direct the children to God, so that every subject they’re learning, whether it’s mathematics or English or whatever it is these are truths, all that come from God. And so God becomes the ordering source or the harmonizing source of the things they’re learning. I think in, in secular education or public education, there has been an intentional effort to wipe God out. And so you have very well-intentioned teachers and well-intentioned students who want to teach and want to learn, and aren’t teaching certain truths, but that ordering principle, that harmonizing principle of God is lacking.

Greg: Couldn’t agree more, but how has that changed over the last, I don’t know, 20 years?

Fr. Mike: I would say in my experience over the last 20 years, rather radically and rather rapidly, God has been taken out of education. And it’s created a vacuum that has been filled with other things that are actually antithetical to God. And so you have students learning subjects, learning truths that direct them to God, because he’s the source of them. But then you have all this social engineering that is actually anti-God and it creates a dissonance within the students and confusion to the students that they can absorb. And so they retreat, where do they go to the virtual world? And that leads to some of the things you were saying before. We began recording about the increased suicide rates, because there’s such tension within these kids that they’re learning truth, but then they’re being fed all this stuff that is anti-God and they can’t process it. And what makes it even worse? It’s worse for children that come from margins, children that come from poverty, because at least if you’re a kid and you’re gone home to a mom and a dad and a stable family life, that family unit introduces you to God and kind of balances the dissonance you’re experiencing at school. If you’re immersed in poverty, your family’s broken, you don’t even have that to balance the confusion that chaos that they’re being nurtured on in school. And, and it’s, it makes it even worse for them.

Greg: And I hear what you’re saying. You’re not, you’re not saying Catholic. You’re saying, God, you’re not, right? It’s having a faith. So, we digress a second, this is about children, but I also was involved in an organization that is a mission for homeless people. And the first thing they thought, to get better results, they needed them to get attached to a religion.

And once they got attached to a religion, the results improved. And I know you, weren’t saying Catholic, you were saying how they have a faith, but here’s some statistics on Catholic: 99% of students who attend

Catholic high school graduate. Of those, 86% attend a four year college.

(SOURCE: National Catholic Educational Association, 2020)

So, when you think about that, what you’re saying and from your seat, I think, I don’t think anybody wants to be surprised that that came from Father Mike, but it’s also statistically correct, that it helps get outcomes, better outcomes.

Gloria: And there are better outcomes for children that do attend a Catholic school, whether they’re Catholic or not, they embrace something they’re not forced to go to mass— they go to mass, it’s a part of their day and part of their curriculum, but other faiths benefit from a Catholic education also.

Greg: And Father, you were sort of— Harmony, do you have anything to add? You’ve watched, you’ve watched— Have you always been in the Catholic school, did you also have different experiences?

Harmony: I taught in public school as a teacher, and then my administration work has always been in a Catholic school, as a Catholic school principal. It’s just the order. Life is chaotic. The world is chaotic. Our kids leave our doors into chaos. That school day we have is all about order. And that order comes from God. Like Father Mike was saying, you know there’s natural consequences. There’s a higher power than us. And everything we do in the day is ordered towards God. And it’s just, you know, simple things with how we carry ourselves, how we interact with each other in the building, how our teachers present themselves, and you know, how they are able to relate to our students about their lives, and their belief in God. It just, it creates a calm, it creates a very centered— the kids are just, they’re just in a good state, a good state of mind when they’rewith us in, in the Catholic schools, in my opinion.

Fr. Mike: Having that notion of God or that ordering principle intentionally inserted into everyday life. Perhaps, this is just maybe a theory of mine, helps the children to assimilate the truths that the teachers are teaching in their subjects. So the information they’re receiving makes more sense when that ordering that harmonizing principle is present. And maybe that is, that’s what gives birth to the statistics that you just said for us.

Greg: Let’s take this from a little different angle. Because we believe, you know, there, there’s important to have some faith and have, be attached to your religion, and it is part of education. But aside from that, when we think about education, right, when we think about what’s going on in education, whether it’s because of technology, whether it’s because of bureaucracy, right? Whether it’s, let’s talk about those things. Like when you talk about the bureaucracy, it’s interesting how much disagreement there is, whether the children should be going back to school right now or not. And, and, you know, I was mentioning to you guys before we started this podcast that a good client of ours from the west coast sent me an article, and it had, from Brown University, it had, in the study, there were 200,000 students, 63,000 staff members. And the infection rate with students is 0.13% of the students. And it’s only 0.24% of the staff. And for that, and I get how hard it is on teachers, because trying to connect with a mask on is, I watched some of my friends that are teachers, is brutal. But if you follow the statistics, right, the real risk to students being in school, isn’t that great.

Gloria: Today, Dr. Mark Siegel said there were 90,000, over 90,000 cases in one area of North Carolina. 32 came from 32 were in a grade school and elementary school. Kids need to be in school. It’s the safest thing for them.

Greg: And that’s where the client from the west coast. She’s the one that showed me the statistics on how many of them are suffering mental health issues to the extent of actually taking their own lives. So, the crisis right now in health, in the schools, is a mental health issue more than a COVID issue. Why is that? Why is the bureaucracy because I mean, a lot of Catholic schools didn’t close, correct?

Fr. Mike: Correct. Well, I think well I’ll go back to my fundamental point and it might sound repetitive. You know, you keep hearing about let’s, let’s pour more money into it, pour more into it. No amount of money can make up for the abyss created by having a lack of God or forces antithetical to God in a school.

Greg: And you’re not saying it has to be a Catholic school. You’re saying—

Fr. Mike: I’m saying it has to be a school that is, is not anti-God.

Greg: Right, you’re not even saying they have to like be a Catholic school and pray. What you’re saying is you just — but having, being able to have a belief in God in the school shouldn’t be looked down on.

Fr. Mike: Correct.

Greg: So you’re not saying like, you know, they should be promoting, or you’re just saying, if you’re not going to promote you shouldn’t criticize.

Fr. Mike: You shouldn’t promote social engineering that is anti-natural law and anti-God and anti-virtue. That’s my point. Today I was taking—

Greg: Because there is an agenda right now.

Fr. Mike: Well, correct. The contrast couldn’t be clearer. Today, I was taking a walk on the grounds of a high school, public high school. And that school has been on hybrid since COVID meaning the kids, half of the kids go two days a week, half of the other, the other half go the end of the week. But now the teachers are on strike and there aren’t any kids going to school. Right across the street is the Catholic high school in total, full operation, which it has been since the beginning of the academic year. And to me, the contrast couldn’t be clearer there. When you have an organizing principle, it’s easier to organize. And so the church, Catholic schools, faith-based schools, have been able to get their stuff together and organize and present something because of that.

Fr. Mike: First of all, but also because they’re tuition-based schools and they had to figure it out. Because people weren’t going to pay to not send their kids to school. And so there was a financial incentive for faith-based schools, Catholic schools, to figure out a way to make it work.

Greg: And is this new? I ran into this statistic, 30% of Catholic schools have a waiting list for admission. Did you guys know that? I didn’t. I was surprised at that. That’s according to National Catholic Education Association. And it is a new stat, it’s 2020. So, it’s not like it’s dated.

Harmony: I think that’s a COVID stat, which is, I mean, it’s fantastic for those schools, but I think most of the schools in the Pittsburgh area, the Catholic schools all have wait lists. Because when the public schools chose not to come back brick and mortar, couldn’t make decisions, you know, push the school year back. Parents were uncertain of the year, parents work, they need their kids in a building. And a lot of those public school parents knew that the Catholic schools were operating five days a week, in person. With still COVID precautions, kids safe, spreading them out in the classroom, masks required, you know, things like not changing for gym class. So, parents felt comfortable with their kids in Catholic school buildings, but wanted them in person. So they ran, they ran to the Catholic schools, which is fantastic. And hopefully, those Catholic schools are doing something right this year and can keep those kids. Hopefully they had an experience, an experience like the one we’re talking of, and their kids are doing well and, you know, seeing a different side of their children perhaps, and want them to stay for the long term. But we’ll see. Time will tell.

Greg: Yeah. So, another thing that’s going on in the current education, and I’d be curious, your views on this, clearly technology is blossoming. We’re all on zoom meetings all the time. I have an iPad in front of me. If I leave my house without my cell phone, I’m convinced I’m gonna, you know, I don’t know it’s unsafe. It kinda it’s like, I didn’t like to go to the yard without my cell phone. It’s not safe. What happens? So, technology is a big part of our lives. It’s a big part of our kids’ lives. We have to make sure we embrace that. But, and I don’t, and I don’t remember the book, you’ll remind me, it’s— Glow Kids. Do you want to talk about that and how we have to find the balance on technology?

Gloria: Well, technology is healthy, and technology is a good thing, and it has a place in many children are learning today because of technology because their schools are not functional. So, I guess it’s more of a, something is better than nothing. However, their dependence upon technology is the frightening part. It’s bad for them, for their eyesight. There are so many things that they’re exposed to. It’s not controlled. And technology is meant, in my humble opinion, in a school setting, to be an enhancement, not the sole curriculum and not the sole source. So, I think that’s where we have there’s, there’s an issue with it.

Greg: So, technology is important, but less.

Gloria: Less technology, they need to be adept. And the world we live in, they need to have the skills to be able to function, to do spreadsheets, to do whatever they need to do to get it to when they go to, for us, I’m speaking from an elementary perspective, but they need to be ready to go into a high school setting where PowerPoints and all the different things that you do, in the world of technology, you have the skill. And there are certain — seeing the Mona Lisa we can’t take a whole school of kids to see the Mona Lisa, but you certainly have the resource. It’s a resource, it’s a fabulous, wondrous resource, but it is not a main source.

Greg: Your advice to parents watching children from a different perspective, more or less technology at home?

Harmony: Always less.

Greg: Because I remember we were having this conversation in a meeting one time, and we talked about how, by the time the kids get at school, they’re technologied-out. And that’s, that’s when we were talking about, you know, how damaging it is. In fact, some, a lot of the creators of the technology do not allow their children to be using it.

Gloria: Using it, exactly. Well, you know, Greg, you think about the different things the kids experience, we talked about the increased suicide rate. You know, when we were younger, I’m of a certain age, when you’re younger, someone said something mean about you, or wrote a note that was unkind about you—

Greg: We just said, nuh-uh!

Gloria: Exactly! And someone tore it up and threw it away. Now, it lives on. It’s an infinity. I mean, they take pictures, they post things. It goes to, where three people may have seen a nasty note, thousands of people can see it depending on where they post it. And I think our children suffer from that too. There’s no downtime. They are constantly on this social high that they have to meet certain things. They have to look a certain way. Theyhave to take certain picture. And that’s, that’s just not, the mind isn’t meant for that.

Greg:Everything’s perfect on Facebook, right? I mean, so everybody else’s life is perfect. Then you start comparing yourself to this unfair thing called perfect. Like, I get cranky right now. I think everybody I know is in Florida. And I’m like freezing. And, but it’s probably like seven people, but I find myself getting angry at the world because on Facebook, no one takes, no one takes their picture when they’re in, like, you know, I don’t know, Bridgeville. They take their picture when they’re in Naples. Right? So, but kids, kids go through that. And it’s just really hard on kids. I remember my daughter saying in college, she was seeing everybody else having somuch fun. And then she was at a party and her friends, it was boring party. They jump up and they hug each other, take a great picture, then sit back down and getting bored. But everybody else that sees that, sees. So then you start comparing yourself to that.

So, I watched with my granddaughters, we have a four and a two so far, and one on the way. But we have a four and a two year old. And my daughter-in-law, I thought, was a little militant about this whole technology thing. She was like, no iPad! You know, it was like, we were giving them drugs or something. No, iPad. But now I will tell you, she was right. And now that I’m learning more, she was dead right. And I watch like, even when they watch Daniel Tiger, they go into a trance, right? And they’re not, they’re not as creative. And so, she has them doing different things. And so, we’d all think that the great schools have the greatest technology and it feels like great schools know how to use technology as a tool. Not as a vice.

Harmony: Yeah, it drives me crazy when parents say, okay, well, where are you with technology? You know, it’s like, Oh, it’s so impressive if you have all this tech for our kids to be on. Tech is not teaching children. They’re learning nothing. And it’s, they’re learning through human interactions. You should be sending your children to school, not to stare at the latest, fancy tech screen that a school got a grant for and can brag and advertise how tech savvy they are. They should be learning from human interaction, interaction with their peers, interaction with their teachers, interaction with the great books they’re being exposed to, not to the tech.

Greg: And, you know, we’ll transition now to the opportunity gap. And one of the things, when you think about education, there’s a significant, significant gap in the quality of education from school to school. Right? It’s really inconsistent, the results. So right now, you know, we could all talk about whether there’s, you know, how to address, you know, the lower income communities, how to address the opportunity gap. Like how do you address the opportunity gap? Because there is an opportunity gap, and I don’t think the answer is to change results after someone achieved them, it’s making sure everybody has the same opportunity. And so, right now, in some inner cities versus some suburbs, the difference in education is meaningful. And I’m going to put you on the spot, Harmony. I didn’t tell you I was gonna ask you this, don’t tell the end of the story. Don’t tell what happened. This’ll be, we’ll do this. And then at the end, we’ll give the, the grandfather that came in to talk to you… Because the solution is part of what we’re going to talk about next, but the challenge he was having?

Harmony: So yes, I met a grandfather recently with the new academy, who you know, word of mouth, heard about our school, granddaughter, who he helps care for, because his daughter is a single mother who’s a waitress, works a lot of evenings and weekends. So, he helps with the granddaughter who currently is in preschool. She’s looking, they’re looking for a kindergarten program for her — and beyond. They would like her not to be in the city school system. They’re not happy with what they’ve seen from neighbors, friends, you know, whatever pulse points they have on that. They want her in a private school. You know, just calling around, thank God for grandpa, right? I actually got to meet them today and he’s a fantastic man. Anyway, we, he asked me, well, what’s your tuition rate? I’m calling around all the schools, some have them posted on their websites. You guys don’t have your tuition posted. And I said, well, that’s correct.

Greg: We’ll stop there. So yeah. So then we said, no, we’ll share that in a bit because, so here’s what we got. We got, we got cause, cause it’s not just one grandpa, you multiply that. This is our nation. It’s a grandpa trying to find a school for his granddaughter and daughter is working hard.

Harmony: Right, she can’t even look for schools for her own child. She’s just trying to keep it together.

Greg: She’s a waitress or something. She’s a waitress. So, she’s trying to find — that happens everywhere. So right now, her choice is an inner city school.

Harmony: Correct.

Greg: And that is going to be a challenge, right? I mean, it hasn’t been a good experience for a lot of the neighbors. So, and when we think about options. So right now, if you live in a suburb, you have a choice: you have a really good Catholic school to go to, or you have a really good public school to go to.

Harmony: Right. Times are tough.

Greg: That’s a good choice. Times are tough. You go into the, you go into the inner city and you’ve got no Catholic school, because that’s where they all closed. Right?

Harmony: Correct.

Greg: And you have a public school that most, that they’re not getting the outcomes they should get.

Harmony: Correct.

Greg: And so that’s where, help me understand why school choice isn’t happening?

Gloria: I think, I think a compromise for school choice, as opposed to having, having your tax dollars sent directly to the school that you want your child to attend, at least give those families that have chosen a Catholic or private education, a tax credit for the tuition that they’re currently paying to a Catholic school.

Greg: And say, if you make over X, you don’t get it. This isn’t like, say if you make over X, you don’t get it. But for that granddaughter and for that grandfather, they should have the same choices I have. And if you solve for that opportunity gap at that moment, then you wouldn’t fast forward and have CEOs of the Fortune 500 companies, so few of them being minorities. Like so few of them are minorities, it’s frightening. And it’s because of that opportunity gap and the inconsistency of the education. Fair?

Gloria: Absolutely fair.

Greg: So, who’s doing the opportunity with EITC because I think we can help. It is amazing. I’m actually embarrassed that I didn’t know about the EITC a while ago, because the opportunity with EITC is a real, a great chance to help kids. You want to talk about what the EITC is?

Harmony: EITC stands for educational improvement tax credit. It’s a Pennsylvania program. It allows folks basically to divert tax credits, tax money towards non-profits, especially schools, right, non-public schools who are educating their children. It’s a tax credit that and include a personal tax, a business tax, and there’s also various special taxes that our accountants are more privy to than we are. We’re not the accountants in this call, but basically the money becomes a donation to our schools. So, we approach donors, it could be somebody who owns a business, it could be somebody who just is at a certain income level and instead of the money that they would pay in state taxes, the state is allowing them to divert that money to our schools.

Greg: So, someone, if someone pays $10,000 in state taxes, you could give $10,000 to a school, a private school, right? And then you could write off, if you commit to that $10,000 for two years, you can write off 10,000 or I’m sorry, $9,000. There’s a thousand dollars left. And then you write that thousand off your federal, make it up, say it’s 30%. So that $10,000 donation only cost you $700. Because it’s important that we’re hearing the right words. It’s a credit, not a write-off.

Harmony: Correct.

Greg: So that’s a 90% credit if you commit for two years. And then the other 10% goes to federal to be written off as a write-off not a credit. So, for every $10,000 you give it only is 700. And then you can look at that grandfather and say, we got it.

Harmony: We got it.

Greg: We got it. So that’s the opportunity and the opportunity gap. And so that’s the solution, as a nation, we need to come together and find. We need to solve for this education. Because I think the extremist, whether — there’s different ways to handle problems, you don’t flip over cop cars, you don’t burn things and you don’t charge the capital! Like for goodness sakes, there’s different ways of solving for this, and I think that’s a reasonable solution. So, let’s go to the solution that we’re talking about today, according to Stewart and Wolf, inner-city Catholic parents believe that participating in the Catholic school community represents an opportunity to break the cycle of poverty.

(Stewart, Wolf, et. al, 2009)

So, you know, I think that’s, it’s just interesting, right? If we can, if we can bring a different type of education to those children in the inner city, we can really, we can, we can break that cycle. And that’s really the opportunity today.

Greg: So, let’s transition to South Hills Catholic Academy. Because it’s just a really interesting concept that took me a little bit to get my head around. Because when Gloria came to me and said, it’s a Catholic school, it’s blessed by the Catholic Church. And then I heard the Bishop say what a great idea he thought it was. I thought, wow, that’s a really interesting thing. So, I went to Catholic school. That was part of the Catholic Church. This is a Catholic school very specifically that is not directly affiliated with the Catholic Church.

Gloria: We’re independent of the diocese, the business structure of the diocese, our dollars stay with our school and we don’t have to pay any tithing or tax to the diocese. And we are independent of them, of the diocese, but we are blessed, endorsed, supported by the Bishop.

Fr. Mike: The idea of the school really, it was conceived a couple of years ago. When Gloria was at church, she was at church saying some prayers, and we passed in the parking lot. And she had said to me you know, what do you think about starting an independent Catholic Academy in the South Hills, like they have in the North Hills? There was one founded in the North Hills, in the mid-nineties called Aquinas Academy. And so it’s been around in Pittsburgh for a while. It’s an independent school owned and operated by a board, not and operated by a parish or by a diocesan region, diocesan region. And that’s sort of where the idea took shape. And as the group gathered together and we saw what was out there, what was lacking in the southern city neighborhoods, the type of people that for demographic purposes, Catholic education wouldn’t be accessible. That’s how we came up with what you’re going to hear about.

Greg: So, in full disclosure, we’re all on the board and involved. And so I say that because when, when Gloria brought it up to me, I’m like, great idea, never going to happen. I’m in. So it’s going to be great. So, and then, and then I thought, like the more I learned about it, I got really excited about it. Because I started to think, okay, it was at the same period where there was all this unrest in the cities. And there is there is an opportunity gap and I’m thinking, okay, how do we change it? And then you start looking at this and you say, okay, this, because these students will be very diverse. In fact, Harmony, you want to talk about just how diverse the students are and the benefits of that? I mean, you’re starting, and how many students and you know, what the student body is starting to look like as, as it’s forming?

Harmony: Sure. We’re well, you know, we first had to decide on a location, and we wanted to make sure we were at a location that made sense for children to come from the South Hills, meaning the suburbs as well as the city. So basically from Mount Washington back to where we are, where our school is going to be housed, based on past experience, when you, when you don’t publish a tuition fee, you get calls daily from folks from all different, you know, income levels, different religions, you know, different school districts. They’re interested in it, their interests are piqued, right? You know, we’re hoping, and we are getting folks from all of those demographics now. Our goal is to have 150 kids when we open. We’d love to have more. We’ve got a little you know poll on who’s gonna, what the number is going to be on September 1st, right?

Greg: But 150 looks pretty good.

Harmony: It’s looking really good.

Greg: So, the question is, not 125 or 150, it’s could it be 150 or 200? That’s how strong the appetite is.

Gloria: 221 the number.

Greg: 221 is the number? We’ll see. Yeah.

Harmony: Yeah. So we’re trending in that direction. You know, we’re out there. People are hearing about us. We’re getting those calls; we’re getting those tours. People are registering, registering without even seeing the school, which is amazing. We had kids, we had 116 kids preregistered for our school before we had even picked a location.

Greg: This is good.

Harmony: Yeah, it’s good stuff, right?

Greg: So, I’m gonna allow you to finish that story about the grandfather. I’ll put it with this backdrop, the average tuition of the Catholic elementary school in the U.S. is $4,840 per year, according to education.org. And that’s a new number. So, finish the story, the guy, that the grandfather’s daughter has very limited income.

(SOURCE: EDUCATIONDATA.ORG, 2020)

Harmony: Very limited income.

Greg: Very limited income. And so, they want a solution for the granddaughter. What’s the outcome?

Harmony: The solution is, is we have, you know, an internal grid basically based on income and how many children are going to be in the school. And then we take in account other life circumstances, right? It might not show up on your tax return that, you know, dad just passed away and now there’s, you know, a single income. Or, you know, a house fire. You know, we, we hear these stories daily and before, our hands were tied, but hopefully now with our new school, with this new school, they won’t be. So, when I told the grandfather the amount that his granddaughter would be paying, or I guess it would be, his daughter would be paying to come to our school based on her income, it was $500. And I think he started crying on the phone and he said, how are you making this happen for us? And I just said, don’t worry about it. No, I did explain the EITC program. I explained that we do also have, you know, many, we’re blessed by benefactors, you know, contributions through, you know, and we are going to be collecting tuition. I mean, we’re not going to lie. We want people who can pay tuition to pay tuition.

Greg: But that’s the diversity.

Harmony: That’s the diversity, because if we establish a school with only people who can pay tuition, we’re not diversifying our school.

Greg: Or anybody who can’t.

Harmony: Or anybody who can’t, that’s right.

Greg: That’s the diversity. And I think, I think all groups benefit from that.

Gloria: Absolutely.

Harmony: Correct. Correct. So the registrations that we have to date are reflecting that diversity, I keep a spreadsheet of everybody’s tuition agreement, and we have from one end of the spectrum, like that grandfather who officially registered his granddaughter today, all the way to the other end of the spectrum, which is still an affordable Catholic education, it aligns with the other Catholic schools in the area what they’re charging and what, you know, the stat that you just read a few moments ago about the average tuition costs. Our max is, is around that, around that number.

Greg: So, are you going to have a hard time finding teachers though, I mean, excellent teachers like good ones? Like, are you gonna have a hard time doing that?

Harmony: Excellent teachers follow excellent leaders. And I’m not just talking about myself, Father Mike, our board members, you know, we have an excellent team and, and people want to work for us.

Greg: Are you getting applicants?

Harmony: I do. So, I haven’t opened up the application process. February 1 was my goal. And here we are, into February and I haven’t done this because I’ve been so busy with incoming parents, registrations. I mean, it just, doesn’t slow down. Every single day, we’re getting new kids and the paperwork that’s coming in. And, you know, just spending the time with those parents, showing them the building. But people are, I don’t want to use the word aggressive. And it sounds so negative, because I love that they’re being aggressive, but teachers who are talented, who have experience, who have knowledge in classical curriculum and even ones who don’t, but are willing to learn it are knocking on our door.

Greg: So, Daniel Pink wrote, in fact it’s a great book to read, Daniel Pink wrote a book called Drive. And he talks about what motivates people. So, the reason I’m not surprised, you’re getting a lot of teachers interested is: one, clearly people need to be compensated fairly, but they also want to be, to be part of something greater than themselves. So, there’s a range where as long as they make X, then they just want to be part of really making a difference. And I think most people get into teaching because they want to, they want to make an impact on children. And this is certainly an opportunity to do that.

Harmony: I mean, they’re excited about the project. They want to be something, a part of something from the ground up and build it along with us. I mean, this building will, the building of this school will continue throughout the first year and beyond. It is a start-up school.

Greg: So what does it look like in 10 years? 10 years we’re sitting here. It looks like … here we go. Everybody is looking like, what are we allowed to say?

Gloria: Ten years, we have a very full school, maybe a second site. And we also have a vo-tech school. Minimum of 10 years.

Greg: Wow.

Harmony: Grand plans.

Greg: So, I think the vo-tech school is an interesting concept a lot bit, right? Because it’s just so sad that they’re — not everybody, not everybody should go to college. And by the way, you can have a marvelous, marvelous, marvelous career, not going to college. I mean, if you learn a trade right now, it’s a void, it’s a void. That’s just not enough of those folks out there, that are able to, that have that skillset.

Gloria: Imagine if you have a student who has been able to go through a trade school, you know, from seventh through 12th grade, when they will be able to name the school, they want to attend as far as trade schools and be out and working members of the community and profitable, living good lives. That doesn’t happen.

Fr. Mike: One of the news programs the other night, they were talking about the Keystone Pipeline. And they were talking to guys who were like welders and technical guys. They were making 250, 300,000, $350,000 a year from the trades. Which was surprising to me, welders, electricians, plumbers, HVAC.

Greg: Oh, yeah, it’s amazing. Oh yeah. And you can grow up huge business. Right. So that’s good to hear. Did you, did you guys mention like the location of the school? That was— No? So, so sorry. So, so saw, you said like where it is. So, you want to explain where we are on location, and South Hills Catholic Academy, where it’s going to be.

Harmony: Sure. So, the school sits on 550 Sleepy Hollow Road, which it borders Mount Lebanon. And I guess it would be the city, correct? Castle—

Fr. Mike: Mount Lebanon, Castle Shannon, and really the city of Pittsburgh is very close by. Yeah. And that’s why that location was chosen.

Greg: What a great spot.

Fr. Mike: Because it’s a mile, it’s a mile, maybe a mile and a half from Brookline. Other city neighborhoods are accessible and that was a great location for it. Because it was an intact school building that was in good condition. And the various systems were in, mechanical systems were in good condition. But also, there’s a beautiful church sort of attached to the building, right across the parking lot. And the kids just have to cross the parking lot to go into church for devotions, masses, services and things like that, which is a part of the everyday flow of the school.

Greg: So, let me ask you this. So, let’s just back up. Because I, I think, I think for everybody, when we’re talking about the current state of education — what has changed, I know there’s been a lot that has changed with technology and taking faith out of school, and to some extent, the idea of right and wrong, you know, however you, however you state that. But in addition, is the way we learn different? Is the way we’re teaching different? Or is it fundamentally the same as it was 20 or 30 years ago?

Harmony: I think we’re teaching to the test. I think education has evolved. You know, the U.S. Is one of the worst countries in the world for educating their children. With all the means that we have, with all the money we have, it just doesn’t make sense. And there’s no band-aid. There’s no, there’s, there’s really no way out. No one has been able to figure out this piece of why we’re failing, right? Why are we failing our children? Why is the literacy rate continue to go up? Right? So classical education, traditional education believes that we take it way back to where it started, right? It was working. You know, this is how our founding fathers were educated. And it goes all back to that. What is true? What is beautiful? What is good? And, you know, going back to the great works of art and literature and historians that that were really why the world exists the way it does. You know, our children can learn, you know, by learning through them, you know, why are we trying to create new ways of learning? The history is there.

Greg: So, when you say, so when you say, teach to the test, is it because like this school district is ranked third in the state. And so we need to teach you, not for your future, learning how to learn or be enlightened. We’re teaching you so—

Harmony: So you can pass a test so that the school district can make money off of your child.

Gloria: I mean, as opposed to teaching them how to learn.

Harmony: How to learn, how to communicate, how to write, how to think for themselves, how to take—

Greg: We don’t know how to write right? Now we think it’s a text like LOL, right? I mean, that’s, that’s how people write. That’s how they even communicate. Like, I’ll talk to someone that’s younger, and they’ll be like, I talked to them and I’m like, no, no stop. Did you talk to them? Well, I emailed them. I’m like, you didn’t talk to them then. You emailed them. But that’s how— the idea of writing. I mean, the whole — I’m like, Holy cow, do they even teach cursive anymore? I don’t even know. Do they do that?

Gloria: We will.

Harmony: Not anymore, but we will.

Greg: So you will be. So there’s meaningful differences.

Harmony: There wasn’t even a grade really anymore in any kind of cursive or writing in general because kids type now. So they think, well, why do they have to write, if you can just type it. But I mean, there is, that is about developing the human, the human, right? Writing. I mean, you write, you need to learn how to write.

Greg: So you teach to the child, not to the test.

Harmony: Correct.

Greg: So that’s a big difference.

Harmony: It is a big difference.

Greg: I never thought about the negative of ranking school districts, because then, I get it. I mean, there’s a lot of pressure on the teacher to be like, Hey, we’re number three. We gotta get, you know, we gotta, we got to teach you to pass that test.

Harmony: It’s a huge stressor on teachers and administrators, because they’re looking at the bottom line. And then the bottom line at the end of the year, or in the spring, when these kids take the PSSAs in Pennsylvania or the Keystone Exams in high school is, where did your school, even within a district, they compete with each other, you know, a certain elementary school against another elementary school. It’s the bottom line. It’s where did the kids score? That’s it.

Fr. Mike: And then this shift, the classical curriculum is occurring across the country, both in faith-based schools, but also in public charter schools. Also, there are public charter schools adopting this curriculum because kids from all demographics do well in it. It seems to be a curriculum that can unify a diverse population. And I’m, I was not classically trained. But when I’m reading about it and then learning about it through the organization that we’ve retained to help develop the curriculum is that, as the curriculum evolves, it tells a grand story, a grand story of man, man’s relationship with God, how that has unfolded through the ages. And the student gradually comes to see that I’m part of this grand story. And I have to contribute with my life to this story somehow. And as the curriculum unfolds, the entire person, the imagination is pulled in and stimulated.

Fr. Mike: And it’s intriguing to a young mind to, to come to see that, wow, this is the expanse of history, salvation history, and I have a part to play and I have to contribute to something that is bigger than me. And so I’ll step up to the plate to do it. Going back to what you said about the teacher issue coming in at the ground level of a start-up school. Like, you know, I have to make a living, but I want to be involved in something bigger than myself and make a contribution to it. From everything I’m reading and researching about this classical, traditional curriculum, it engages the whole person. It draws them in and stimulates the imagination in a different way than a core curriculum does, or the other types of teaching. Not that the other, the other types of teaching are very effective in Catholic schools because there’s is the daily intentional mention of God and the directing the student towards God. And they have impressive results, but this is a different way and a very successful way. And even if you would look upon at the results of like an Aquinas Academy who teaches in this way, their bottom line academic results are even more impressive than the statistics you’ve cited at the beginning of our conversation.

Greg: Like when I first heard it, I didn’t get it. I was like, okay, I’m not sure. I’m not sure. I’m not sure. I’m not sure I get it. But the more I’ve heard it and the more I see the results and the more I learn about it, it is different. It almost, it again, it sounds, it teaches the child how to learn and how to be inquisitive and how to ask questions and know why they believe, right? Know where everything fits. So it is powerful.

Harmony: Just giving another example. We will be teaching geography and history and not social studies, which you will see social studies, in any public school and other and other private schools as well. And if you look at those social studies texts, even starting at a kindergarten age, a lot of them are, just the titles will tell you something. I know one textbook publishing company in particular where it’s in kindergarten, it’s my town. And then in first grade, it’s my state, or my community. And then it goes up to my world and the whole thing talks to the child about what everybody should be doing for them.

Greg: Wait, wait, wait, let’s back up. This is a keeper. So wait. So instead of, instead of social studies, it will be geography and history. And you’re talking about a school and a curriculum in social studies, do the my’s one more time. So, my town—

Harmony: My neighborhood, my community, my state, my world — that’s an example of a social studies curriculum that exists today, a publishing company that puts out those texts. And we look that as educators—

Greg: Amazing.

Harmony: That’s how I was taught.

Greg: But I don’t think parents are —

Harmony: No one’s thinking about this.

Greg: No, and you’re teaching the child, like, always, it’s about me.

Harmony: It’s about me! It’s the me culture. And we wonder where it’s coming from. It starts in kindergarten and social studies class.

Greg: Wow.

Harmony: I mean, it sounds ridiculous, but there is, there’s truth behind it.

Greg: That’s big.

Harmony: It is big.

Greg: So there is a difference.

Harmony: It’s a big difference.

Gloria: Our kids will learn Latin. Which is the foundation of all the language.

Greg: I’d have lasted one week in your school.

Gloria: You and my husband.

Greg: Dave and I would have been bounced.

Gloria: No, no, no, no. We will be a school for everyone.

Greg: Unfortunately, because of financial reasons, Catholic schools are closing, in some cases where they’re needed the most. So, like for example, Saint Anne School was a very diverse school. Right? And so some of those students because of their location could be misplaced.

Fr. Mike: Yeah. And that’s, that’s what, what has happened. It just, through no fault of anybody’s, that’s just how it played out. You know, you had your schools Mount Washington, South Side, Brookline, Beechview, because. of demographic shifts, they, they just couldn’t make it. And really the only way for diocesan schools to survive, they concluded was to merge them all pooling of resources.

Greg: 100 percent.

Fr. Mike: And things like that. But what just happened was there are sections that just where Catholic education remains inaccessible. For geographical reasons, for financial reasons, these immigrant students, Harmony could tell you, they’re tough. They are a lot of work.

Fr. Mike:It’s a lot of work to get forms filled out. To communicate with parents. And not everybody has that skill set that time, that passion for it, like the administration of this school has, and, and the group, the board, the founding board of the school has made that a priority that we will go out into the community and find these kids, rather than just —

Greg: When you say these kids?

Fr. Mike: The recent immigrants.

Greg: Yep, the immigrants. And so, because I mean even great decisions that have to be made, they need to be made, have unintended consequences or difficult consequences. But there’s no question the Catholic church is doing today, what they need to do, but it’s in locations that some of these students have needs also. So, you know, just so we can recap that. So, I think it’s important to understand when we say diverse, how diverse, we mean, if you could give those countries again, and some of the diversity of some of the immigrant children and how it really is making an impact in their lives.

Gloria: And the fact that they know to go directly to the, they want their children in the Catholic school. That’s their first desire. They recognize the Catholic church and the Catholic school as a home and as a safe place, as a. sanctuary.

Harmony: I think we can speak on behalf of just Father Mike’s leadership and my leadership is, you know, our prior experiences in education, we created a name for ourselves with the immigrant population. We service those. kids and we service them well. And we service them like any other child coming into our school, whether the parents could speak English or not, whether they were Catholic or not, whether they can afford tuition or not. And we had a large number of immigrant families in our prior school building. And our hope, because this school, one of our pillars is to reach out to a diverse community, the hope is, is that the leadership of this now new school, South Hills Catholic Academy, the work we’ve done in our past experiences will follow us. Our names are out there in the community. They know what we’ve done in the past. And those children will have another home, a new home. And it won’t just be those children it’s, you know, their family members or a neighbor of theirs, or somebody calls them for help. I’m involved with the Bhutanese community. We’ve reached out to Casa San Jose and Brookline. We know where those people are going for help. And so we want their leaders to be able to say, well I have the school for you? This is where you need to go. You need to call Harmony Stewart. You need to call, you know, Father Mike Caridi. They’ll, they’ll have this figured out for you. And that’s our hopes.

Greg: So Ca-rid-ee instead of Ca-reed-ee?

Fr. Mike: Well, you say it better than Harmony says it.

Greg: Well who, which is right?

Fr. Mike: Caridi.

Harmony: I don’t say it right.

Fr. Mike: But in the end though, I think that that, that was when, when the board was making their proposal to Bishop Zubik because in the Catholic world, in order to be called Catholic, you have to cooperate with the Bishop and collaborate with him. You just can’t give yourself that name. I think that’s one of the things that he saw that the board had put a lot of time in ensuring that populations who would lack access to Catholic education that this complimentary offering that we’re providing would reach out to them and would connect them to the church. And, and that’s one of the primary reasons I believe he’s approved this independent Catholic school and is allowing it to go forward.

Greg: Great discussion, great discussion. I feel like we could talk for a lot longer. And probably will.

Fr. Mike: Invite us back. We’ll talk enlightenment philosophy.

Greg: Well, thank you for, thank you for a wonderful discussion. Father, Harmony, Gloria, thank you for all the great stuff you’re doing for children. You know, there’s a lot of great teachers out there. There’s a lot of opportunity to close this opportunity gap and spread the word. South Hills Catholic Academy is changing the way our children are becoming educated. And if you want to learn more about that, please go to

www.SHCAcademy.com.

Greg: Thanks for listening. If you’d like to hear other subject matters that may be of interest to you, please check us out at ConfluenceFP.com/podcasts.

Confluence Financial Partners — Marketing in the Time of Coronavirus | Episode #11

Greg: 90% of people want companies to do everything they can to protect the wellbeing and financial security of their employees and suppliers. Imagine that,

(Edelman, 2020 https://www.edelman.com/research/covid-19-brand-trust-report)

Hi, this is Greg Weimer, partner of Confluence Financial Partners. I have the privilege today to be here with Bill Garrison, partner of Garrison Hughes and Dave Popelka, we’re laughing, so I have to be careful not to call him Bob. I knew his dad before I knew Dave. Dave Popelka, president of Garrison Hughes. Welcome guys.

Bill: Good to be here.

Dave: Yeah. Good to be here.

Greg: But I thought we’d talk a little bit about what it takes to be successful. The success of your firm has been remarkable. I’ve watched you grow. So, if I were a growing business, I’d want to, I’d want to hear about some of the key things that you did to allow that to happen.

It’s a new world, right? It’s a new world of communication. Like, I mean, a lot of industries are changing communication, and the way you reach out to clients is — it’s changed.

And I’d like to talk a little bit about that. And then the pandemic, like, what does, what has it meant to businesses? What do you have to do to be successful? Who’s leaning in? What’s changed. And then, Dave, something you mentioned to me last week is, I think he called it “consumer scarring.” So, because of the pandemic, there’s been changes. So, we’ll leave that, leave that as a little teaser on “consumer scarring.” What does that mean? What does the pandemic mean? What does it mean today, and what does it mean in the future?

First of all, Bill, you founded the organization in 2003. Why don’t you just give a brief overview, so people understand where you guys have come from and, and sort of where you are today?

Bill: Sure. Well, Dave Hughes and I had worked together for many years. We were at big agencies like Ketchum Advertising and Mullen and some smaller agencies, more, more creative places like

Werner Chepelski. And we sort of grew up in the business. We met each other pretty much when we started our careers. And you know, we worked together. You work with a lot of different people, but Dave and I just seemed to hit it off in terms of knowing what each other’s strengths were. And so, we grew up in the business.

We sort of started to look at the business of advertising. And we saw how it was changing. And big agencies were getting splintered up, and bigger clients were looking for more collaboration, more creative partnerships.

So, we saw a need out there. And we saw a chance where we could start our own place. We never thought about doing that, right? It’s one of those things, some people just are wired to start their own business — we were very happy, we were growing, we were rising up, we had good titles, but we knew there, maybe, there was a better way to do this. And so, we took a chance. We left it all, just the two of us. We kept our relationships; we had our reputation, and that’s about all we knew. We knew that we could get the work.

Greg: So, no frightening moments? You open the doors, you to walk in, you’re looking at the phone, it’s not ringing…

Bill We had seen a lot of peoples start their own agency and kind of flame out.

Greg: Yeah.

Bill: Cause, they said, “It’s us against the world. Big agencies suck, we’re the best. So, we’re going to show the world how to do it right.” And then in a year and a half, they were gone.

Greg: Right.

Bill: So, we looked at that, and we said, why, why aren’t they surviving? Because it is hard to survive as a business and an advertising agency. And in a community like Pittsburgh, there’s relationships. And you don’t want to sort of burn these bridges.

Greg: It’s everything. And by the way, to your credit on relationships. I don’t know if I’ve ever told, we work with Garrison Hughes at Confluence. So, you know, for the listeners, we work with Garrison Hughes. And the reason we called you guys originally was one of the firms who will remain.

Nameless, one of the firms that you mentioned, where you guys used to work, one of the former executives, as high as you can get, when I said to him, who should I call? He said, “Call Garrison Hughes.” So that’s an incredible relationship, right?

Bill: Yeah. And we kept in touch—

Greg: That was probably four or five years ago.

Bill: Part of —it’s not like you follow your business plan exactly. But we had to write a business plan.

We didn’t know how to write a business plan.

Greg: So, it was just the two of you.

Bill: It was just the two of us. And we, we made a decision to do two things. One was, get a client and try to get a client kind of before we went out on our own. At least get some confirmation that we could have a client.

Dave: And that’s a big mistake, a lot of people, you just open up and say, ‘okay, come to us.’ You need the client to get going. Right? I think that was smart.

Bill: That’s exactly right. Yeah. You end up opening your door, and you say, okay, we do it better. We have — these people that started their own little shop. They had good reputations.

Greg: Yeah.

Bill: They had relationships, but they basically walked away and said, we’re going to go do new things.

Greg: Build it, and they will come.

Bill: Yeah. And we’re sitting in Egan Conference Room here at our agency, and that’s because Dave Egan was CMO at Reed Smith. We had worked for Dave. We had kept in touch with him. He was a, you know, we didn’t know about Reed Smith’s agency relationships.

Greg: So, where’s our room? We’re a client. Where’s our room?

Dave: Wait, we’re doing the build-out. We’re doing the build-out right now, Greg.

Bill: Yeah. Thanks, Dave, for picking me up on that one. But, Dave said, if you guys go out on your own, yeah, I would, we’ll work with you.

Greg: That’s awesome.

Bill: And he, he was in the midst of severing, his relationship with a Washington DC firm. And so, we sorta went out going, okay, nice anchor client, but it’s not going to pay all the— it’s going to pay our bills. And then we can start, because we at least knew, we both had little kids. My daughter’s about the same age as the agency. So we were, we had little kids and we had bills to pay. We had all kinds of things that would scare you into not getting into business.

Greg: Absolutely.

Bill: And the second thing we did was, work with agencies. I think out of the top 25 agencies in Pittsburgh; we did business with 22 of them as a freelance.

Greg: Okay.

Bill: We were as the senior team, we had, we could jump ten steps ahead. If they need new business, they’re always looking for ideas to share with clients. And sometimes their own people are busy, and they just need some fresh ideas.

Greg: Right.

Bill: Dave and I had worked with big agencies. We worked on big clients. We could plug in, and I would say probably 30 to 40% of our business was with other ad agencies.

Greg: Oh, really? That’s yeah. That’s interesting. So, Dave, how long have you been here?

Dave: Almost six years. And we worked together. I knew Dave and Bill. I’ve known them 25 years. I worked with them at Ketchum. And I remember when you, when you went out on your own, as an industry, everyone kind of collectively said, ‘That’s going to work. That makes sense.’ And I was at Mullen at the time, and we had used you guys for some things and it just, they had such a good

Reputation. Everyone wanted to work with them. And it was, it was kind of just a, it was a really smart, I think, strategy in terms of getting going.

Bill: Our theme line was “Big agency experience without the big agency bar tabs.”

Greg: I got it. We’re like that. Yup. Same.

Bill: And the cost was a factor for agencies. They knew they could get the kind of work that—

Greg: Although you don’t, you don’t feel inexpensive.

Dave: Did we mention the build-out on the conference room?

Bill: Yeah, the Weimer Room.

Greg: So, okay. So that’s, that’s a great foundation. So, the two of you starting entrepreneurial, as you know, it’s interesting. I don’t think that you’re entrepreneurs, you learn how to be entrepreneurial, which is a little bit different. I think we’re the same way. So today, how many associates?

Dave: So, 83.

Greg: So now we’re one of the fastest-growing companies in Pittsburgh, right?

Dave: Right. Yeah. The Pittsburgh business times has a fast 50—

Greg: Okay. So here’s the question. So why does that matter? Like, is it like, cause we’ve grown a lot also, and I think it’s: you either grow or you die. So why has that mattered?

Dave: Momentum matters.

Greg: For. Sure.

Dave: And I think it matters internally and matters for clients. It generates energy, it generates ideas, and it builds on itself. And so, when you’re adding other services, and you’re trying to help clients and the momentum, it just kinda rolls, and it’s very, very important.

Greg: Yeah. So, you know, so when we work with your firm, I can imagine, like, if — the two of you are great, but you know, Dave, you’ve been very helpful for the relationship, Shannon, you know, so, it’s a team. I don’t think you can attract and retain talented people unless you’re growing, and clients should demand that. Right? So, you have to have talented people. We’re both in the same type of industry in that; it’s — we don’t make widgets. Right. We have intellectual capital. So, for us to attract talent, we have to give them opportunity. To have opportunity, you have to give them growth. So, people have said to us like, why does growth matter? That’s why it matters.

So, what’s the number one thing that you would say helped you grow, the most important thing?

Bill: I would say loyalty, the loyalty of the people that we brought in, and they were senior-level people. And we had worked with them before and they just, they brought real stability to just the agency and how we, they got to know clients. Obviously, I mean, loyalty helped us as a business, our work, I think, and the quality of our work always had to be at the highest level, because that was our reputation. And people came to expect a certain level of work from us. And so, we had to keep that up.

Greg: But, but without the right people and those people being loyal, you can’t provide that right for your clients.

Bill: Right. We have you know, Mike Giunta, who’s our chief creative officer. He was our first employee — still here.

Greg: Yep.

Bill: Just the people, I think we gave them growth opportunities. We gave them a chance to, as we say, get closer to clients, you know, these are people that worked at bigger agencies. There are layers built-in at certain places where you’re not going to be that connected to a client that can work to a certain point, but we always encourage people to, you’re going to be in front of a client.

Greg: Right?

Bill: Your work, you have to speak to your work. You’re going to have to defend your work. You’re going to have to compromise with a client. You need to; you need to want that interaction. And we had people that they prided themselves on their work so much that they just didn’t want to hand it off.

And then somebody else run with it. So we gave them that opportunity. And clients came to, to expect that whoever they talked to knew what was going on, knew how to speak well about a project, or at least could get them to the right person so that “no layers” was another one of our mantras early on.

Dave: Yeah. One of the things that struck me is that the, our old building, which I never worked, which across the way here, so the employees, literally used to take out the trash. Right. And that, you know, you’re starting, everyone’s pitching in. That mentality still exists. Whether that’s helping to stock the refrigerator, or do you need something, a client needs something, it’s that kind of humility in the idea that we’re going to run to problems, not from them and help each other. And that, that has been that’s permeated, I think, what we’re about. We still metaphorically take out the trash.

Greg: Yeah. And that culture comes through in your work, right? So, it’s interesting how you’ll see some organizations; they treat their associates so poorly. And if you treat your associates poorly, I don’t how they expect then that associate to treat the client well. It’s just not logical. And in every industry, and some industries are worse than others. We don’t need to name the industry, but I think some are really bad. But it’s interesting that you’ll watch that. And then you’ll hear the associates have disdain for their company. “I don’t really like our company.” Well, it’s like, well, then how are you going to be happy answering the phone and taking care of that family on the other line?

Dave: You can’t.

Greg: You can’t. So, you know, it’s the relationships, people, loyalty, you know, turnover is a problem, right? So you can’t, so we pride ourselves on low turnover at the same time. You, you know, you just have to find the right, the right associates also. So yeah.

So, well, congratulations on your growth. That was, it’s been awesome. It’s been great to work with you guys, and it was; I’m looking at the two of you also. It’s also interesting how, and it’s one of the things we like about working with you guys; there’s succession built-in, right. I mean, Bill, you’re not that old, you’re going to be around a long time, but Dave, you’re president, you’re more and more active with us. We love the relationship. We have a relationship with both of you guys. We’re trying to do that also in succession planning, because, you know, we hope as our organization to have a relationship with you for 50 years.

So it may not be the exact same people in the room, but it would be people that were brought up in that culture. So, it’s good to watch you guys; it’s sort of reassuring to watch you guys really think about the succession of the business.

Bill: We really appreciate that coming from a client.

Greg: Yeah. We actually like Dave a little more.

Bill: Yeah. That’s good. As it should be, but Dave heads our management team. Dave and I are still involved, and we love our client relationships. We’re involved in the work. We always want to be involved in the work. That is just what why you get in the business; you see something that you create.

Greg: Yeah. Jim, and I will do the exact same thing. I think Jim and I will always be involved in the business. And I know I can speak for Jim on that. We’ve talked about it a lot. We’ll always be involved in the business, we’ll always be involved in working with clients, but there will be a moment. I don’t know when 10, 15, 20 years, where the day-to-day management of the business, shouldn’t be done with us. So, then we can actually spend more time, not less, with clients. So, I think we’ll be around forever, but our capacity will change in that, we’ll have other opportunities for young leaders to actually come in and run the firm.

Dave: And I think you’re in that you and Dave being so involved, still, in some way, not that it makes it easy, but it’s easier. And it goes to your comment before about strengths. And then, and I think some of the alleviating some time allows you to be more involved in work and clients, and that’s good.

Greg: I haven’t seen any, like, I, Bill, I talked to you just as much as I always have. Now, Dave, I talk to you more. And so, for us, it’s been additive. It’s been absolutely additive.

Okay. So, congratulations, succession, it’s all good. The world’s changing. Talk about that. Like if, you know, we started with, you know, we used to write letters and communication— you guys are in the communication business and, you know, before— things have changed, we were, we were sort of talking before they started recording. I think, how you’ll hear associates say, well, “I talked to them,” and it’s like, “OK, could you define talk?”

Dave: It was a bunch of emojis I sent them.

Greg: Yeah. I sent them a bunch of emojis or OMG. Or I sent them an email. It’s like, okay, we didn’t talk, we didn’t talk.

So, just talk a little bit about how it’s changed in the industry, you know, wherever you want to go. Cause I think about, you guys probably used to be big TV, and I know we still do TV. You guys do TV, but there’s other things, right? I mean, your business, like ours, has changed dramatically. So, if you could just do like where it was, where it is, and where you think it’s going.

Dave: Oh, I think in some ways, it’s more fun than ever. It’s more challenging, but here’s what hasn’t changed, though. It still is about ideas. It’s still about connections. It’s still about what is the Confluence story, and how do you tell that in a relevant and meaningful way? So that, that’s the part that, that is consistent. But I think obviously these conversations start with digital, right? It’s thinking digital-first that in terms of that’s where consumers are, especially during these COVID times. Digital people are on their tablets and smartphones and laptops more than before; we’re online more than before. And so, I think back in the day; maybe you would think TV would be the beginning of an idea. And now it’s, you were thinking digital, how does that work? How do you connect? And what that you can get more targeted and more specific. And obviously, it’s more measurable. So then we know clicks and all those types of things.

Greg: Okay. So, give me this. I’ll give you a chance to do a plug, not including Confluence; what’s the best television spot you ever did?

Dave: Well, I don’t know if it’s the best, but what comes to mind for me in terms of — was the James Conner work. Yeah. You know, I’m a Pitt guy and love James Conner. The UPMC Hillman and work for James Conner. And I always, people talked a lot about that spot. Right? The Fleury spot, people, talked a lot about—

Greg: I’m stunned that you didn’t say Fleury right away. That’s the spot! Thinking about it. That is the that’s the spot. I was like waiting for you to say that, but it was yeah.

Bill: Well, the Fleury spot was, by far, our most successful.

Greg: What made that great?

Bill: It was a combination of things. It was UPMC, the challenge to that spot was Marc Andre Fleury did not speak English very well. And so, it was very crucial that we develop a spot where he was the focus of the spot. But he didn’t say much.

Dave: Now was the original script that had had him talking more?

Bill: We had about ten different concepts with him saying something —

Greg: It’s interesting because I just read that only 7% of communication is verbal. So, you said you, so thinking back to that spot, I feel like he said a bunch.

Bill: Yeah. And,

Greg: And he didn’t.

Bill: We met his wife, you know, high school sweethearts, and she just starts talking right away and talking about their life together and how Mark Andre does this. And Mark Andre does that. And, and we’re going, you’re going to do all the talking. We’ll let him do all the funny stuff.

So, the concept became, she’s talking in normal tones, like Mark, Andre’s just a regular dad. And then he’s, the juxtaposition of all the hockey stuff and playing with the baby became him.

And he is a comical guy.

Greg: Right.

Bill: He’s a prankster.

Greg: He was so authentic. His personality came through.

Bill: And people, the response to that spot was amazing because people kind of thought he was a little standoffish because he probably didn’t interact that much. Probably worried about the communication barrier. They fell in love with him, just all over again, not just—

Dave: It probably humanized him a little bit, right?

Bill: Yeah. I mean, and he let us in his house, he was the most gracious host. We looked at all of his stuff. Funny story, in his basement, we’re down there, we had, you know, like the food service and where all the production people were in his basement. And we were shooting in his kitchen —

Greg: We didn’t get any food for our commercial. But that’s fine.

Bill: Oh, there you go.

Greg: It’s okay.

Bill: I’m going to blame Vince. But we’re in his basement, and I’m looking around, and there’s all the toys, and there’s all this stuff and mixed in with his daughter’s baby dolls, and toys was his face mask from the Olympics.

Greg: Oh, how cool.

Bill: And then his Stanley Cup face mask. And, and he goes, my wife just made me put this stuff down here. Because she was getting sick of seeing it. Right? So, it’s like what we would put—

Greg: Right.

Bill: And he’s putting his Olympic mask with blocks and toys, and we’re going, he’s just a regular guy. And so it came across. Sometimes when the concept, the client trusts you, they don’t make you say, sometimes, there’s all the copy points, and they just say, we gotta, we gotta say this, this and this. They let the process work, humanize the story, and people fell in love with it.

Dave: And like from a strategy standpoint, I mean, it really connected to Magee. It was a very entertaining spot and heartfelt and everything, but they saw their metrics, you know? I mean, it was a good, it was everything you want from a spot.

Bill: Right.

Greg: Right. So, it’s interesting. Now with going through the pandemic, you would think that organized businesses would be seeking more ways to connect with their clients. Right? I mean, whether it’s, I actually, I was golfing with someone over the weekend, and we were talking about clients and just in general, generic clients. And we’re spending a lot of time with clients, whether it’s golf, lunch, dinner, breakfast, whatever. We think it’s like, we like Zoom meetings because it replaces a telephone call. It does not replace human interactions.

So now we’re going to, you know, we’re going to have a great Zoom capabilities in all of our offices we’ve really upgraded all of it, so, it’s great stuff, but human interaction and human connection, I don’t really buy, everybody’s going to work from home, and people aren’t going to collaborate anymore. I can tell you it won’t be happening at Confluence.

We have made that decision where we’re going to continue to collaborate. We’re going to continue to see clients face to face. But it is interesting. So, over the weekend, we’re talking about clients in general. And I said that he said, “Clients? What’s that? I haven’t seen a client.” And he’s in our industry, not at our firm. He said, “I have not seen a client since March.” They’re forbidden to see a client. I’m thinking, wow, you haven’t seen any? Like, I get that you haven’t seen them all, but none?

So, and then when you think about ad spending, I, you know, here’s a statistic that is, that is fascinating. 69% of companies expect they will decrease the ad spend in 2020.*

*(Influencer Marketing Hub https://influencermarketinghub.com/coronavirus-marketing-ad-spend-report/)

Like I would think that if at least our philosophy is if you lean into this, and you spend more on technology on brand, on people, we just hired, I think three or four people in the last month. But if you lean into it, I would think businesses would benefit in the long haul. If you’re really long-term oriented, you’ll benefit from that. Are you seeing companies lean into it? What are you seeing? Are you seeing them pull back? We’re not going to pull back.

Bill: Well, I think a lot of studies have shown that if that, if you go dark that you run a risk of just going completely dark, where you want to pull back and yes, there might be, you know, there are financial reasons to do that, but you risk your brand, and your message just being forgotten. And so, there’s a real risk depending on your business, depending on how much you value that, that brand awareness. I think it’s a—

Dave: Yeah. I mean, I get it. And I think you’re framing it the right way. Is it an expense, or isn’t it an investment for people? And in terms of, from a marketing standpoint, and are you going, do you want to lean into this and really connect? We’ve talked, we were talking before, this is a shared experience. We are all going through this. And as a brand, or a corporation, or as an employer, you can help, be additive into someone’s life and be a part of that. And when you’re back on the other side, you probably will have increased loyalty, to your point.

Greg: One hundred percent.

Dave: And so, I think it’s now, you know, some businesses have obviously been devastated, and so maybe marketing isn’t an option at all.

Greg: But it’s marketing, it’s people, it’s technology. It’s the whole, like, if you’re about maximizing your profits on a quarterly basis as I get it, you can’t do it. I would also argue you’re not going to be a long-term successful business. But if you’re about, I think this is a period of time that you can maybe attract great talent that wasn’t available a year ago, and you can attract great talent. You can, you know, make sure people know that you’re here to help them. And they’re hurting. Like people need to communicate whether it’s their financial, whether it’s their business, they need to communicate right now. So leaning into this as wildly important.

And, and I do think there’ll be a backlash from consumers. Another statistic, 71% of consumers said that if during this time, they perceive that a company is putting profit over people, they will lose trust in that company forever.*

(Edelman, 2020 https://www.edelman.com/research/covid-19-brand-trust-report)

Bill: That’s a pretty big statement.

Greg: I’m —the only thing that surprised me, I’m surprised there’s not more than 71%. Like you would think, it would be a bigger number than that. But it’s still big. It’s still big.

So anyhow, so you’re seeing people pull back a little bit, but, but is that true? Yeah.

Bill: If they are out there with a message, that message is important. That statistic is about being sensitive to during a time like this; what are companies saying? What are their messages? Are they seeming to capitalize on it? Or are they saying something meaningful where they

Understand what’s going on? Are they helping? Are they doing things to help? Some of the companies that have transformed their production facilities to make masks and sanitizer showed innovation with compassion, and not just, ‘Hey, we’re going to continue business as usual here’ —

Dave: Or jack up the prices or whatever.

Bill: Right. People are very aware of that. So, I think the consumer, that’s saying the consumer is very aware of what they are consuming through television and digital—

Greg: It’s a great time to just invest in relationships.

Bill: Absolutely.

Greg: Just like we’ve spent a lot of time together and we had a lot of conversations. This is, is this our third conversation this week? Right? I mean, it’s getting old actually. We’ve spent a lot of time together, but I think our relationship is probably better today than the beginning of the pandemic. Cause we’ve spent time together.

Dave: And I think as a company we’ve tried to, you know, running towards clients and how can we help during this time and try to connect as much as possible. And I think that because it is a shared experience, we’re going through this together. For clients, and especially in the early time, I mean, literally, their business was changing every day.

Greg: Right.

Dave: And so, okay, how do we get out in front of that? How can we help you? Well, what is it that we can do to help you through this?

Greg: You say shared experience. We were speaking earlier. So, you know, this was like one of those JFK shot, you know, space shuttle, September 11th, traumatic events. That’s lasting nine months, right? Like our granddaughter, who’s four. I saw her first day of school. My daughter-in-law, Nicolette, took a picture of her, and she’s there with her little friend, and they’re walking in, and they have masks on. And if you would’ve said that a year ago, you’d have thought, there’s no way.

Dave: Right.

Greg: But I saw going through that really has been, it’s been an amazing experience.

Dave: It has been, I mean, it’s truly has, it’s cliche, but it’s a roller coaster. It’s an emotional roller coaster. It’s an economic roller coaster for people. And it’s, I think from a branding standpoint, an advertising standpoint, you can be the rock in some ways. I think you can. I mean, not to overvalue, advertising or marketing, but a company can help.

Greg: Say we’re here. We’re here. We’re not going anywhere. We’re here to help. We’re not gonna go away. We’re here.

Dave: Peloton. And I mean, you’d know the stock price better than me, but they just announced the other day that they’re doing a price cut because they think this is going to continue a long time and they want to maybe be a little more approachable. And I don’t know, and I don’t know how people react to that, but I think you may see more of that.

Greg: Alright. So that’s the lead in consumer scarring, Mr. CMU, what is it?

Dave: Well, there’s a professor at CMU, Laurence Ales, who had this concept of consumer scarring. And the idea that, that when major things happen in a generation, your behaviors change for that generation. And I think about my grandparents who lived through the depression, and they’d always have a closet full of canned goods, right? It changed their mindset. And so, I think as we, you know, it’s tough to get into the prediction business—

Greg: Let’s do it.

Dave: But to think about, what are the things, long-term, that at least in the rest of our careers or our lifetimes, will be different than they were before.

Greg: Yeah. So let’s do it. What do you think will stay the same? What do you think will change?

Dave: Well, here’s something that isn’t, I think the idea that coming to work sick, you know, playing hurt that whole, that’s probably done for the rest of our careers.

Greg: Yeah.

Dave: I think that idea of, Hey, why don’t you, you know, before it was a badge of honor to come in, your eyes were all glassy. I don’t think people want that at all. Even after the vaccine. That, that would be a guess.

Dave: I think virtual meetings will not go away. I’m not saying they will completely replace the in-person or people are not going to go back to their offices, but the reliance and the ability to do it and maybe, not traveling as much for business, I think that’s, that’s going to be a reality.

Greg: Yeah. In fact, we agree. So, in our new office, in the South Hills that we’re building, one whole wall will be a television, which is a bunch of television screens put together from what I understand. So, but it’ll be the entire wall. So, when we’re communicating with our offices and collaborating with all our offices, we want the quality to be wonderful. If we’re doing Zoom meetings with clients, we want the quality to be wonderful. So, we’ve just spent a meaningful amount of money on our business, making sure that when we do those Zoom meetings, that they’re actually high quality.

Dave: Right.

Greg: So, here’s, here’s something I think, never again — snow days.

Dave: Interesting. No. Yeah. You just would flip the virtual switch and —

Greg: Boom.

Dave: Yeah.

Greg: Sad! I love snow days. No more snow days.

Dave: That’s interesting. Yeah.

Bill: Well, there’s not going to be any more snow.

Greg: God willing.

Dave: But that’s a different podcast.

Dave: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

Greg: So, yeah, I do think though, people will say like, “Oh, we’re never going to again,” and things do— you know, I mean, Pittsburgh will be back. I mean, walking around Pittsburgh right now, because of people fear for their safety, from a lot of different aspects, but Pittsburgh will be back. And so, I think people, they tend to extrapolate out. It’s just not true. I mean, that no one’s going to — that office space is dead. I don’t know. I think people are going to come together. I couldn’t agree with you more, Dave. I don’t think we were going to — and they never should have — but they won’t, going forward, come to work sick. But Pittsburgh will be back. People will be collaborating again. The vaccine will come, and there will be better days ahead. But it will be interesting. I wonder how long it’ll take until people are comfortable in crowded places.

Dave: Well, and I think that’s a great question, and I don’t know if it was McKinsey or one of the, they talked about that basically every business, in the short term, will be in the health business, be in the safety business. Because you evaluate, you’re going to go to a restaurant with your family. You’re evaluating, okay, what are their protocols? If that’s important to you, what are the protocols? And it’s an evaluation for decision making. And so, I think in the short run, that’s how we are thinking, well, you know, that, that retailer, they didn’t do X, Y, and Z. I’m not going there.

Greg: Right.

Dave: Or they went out of their way and did A, B, C, and that was a great experience.

Greg: Right.

Dave: So I think in the short run, we’re kind of all in the health business a little bit right now.

Greg: Yeah. That’s fair.

Greg: You’ve come a long way. You’ve come a long way. Well, congratulations guys. Great conversation; truly have enjoyed it. Appreciate the work that you do with us, and really appreciate the partnership and how you’re committed to being a state-of-the-art, wonderful firm, not only today but for the foreseeable future. Thanks.

Bill: Likewise. Thank you.

Greg: Appreciate it.

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